CH-146 Griffon

[Good2Golf]

Halfway between CH136 (OH-58A) Kiowa and the CH146 Griffon…and not really fitting in with how Canada will likely aim to keep filling as much tactical aviation as possible without being nasty and offensive (so no AH/Attack Helicopters).

 

[KevinB]

Did Canada not do a MOU on FLRAA after Bell won?

 

[Good2Golf]

Not sure…I think that would prejudge nTACS’ outcome.

 

[Kirkhill]

There was some talk of the USMC retiring helicopters along with its tanks and howitzers....

Maybe not.

The plan is/was to remove 26 AH-1Zs and 27 UH-1Ys from service, about 20% of the fleet, and put them into long term storage.

Dozens Of AH-1Z And UH-1Y Helicopters Will Be Retired As Part Of The USMC's Force Redesign

Around one-fifth of the combined AH-1Z and UH-1Y fleets, which are still very young, are headed for long-term storage in the coming years.

www.twz.com

In the meantime the Marines are looking for a Long Range Attack Missile that can be launched from its Vipers and with a 150 NM (276 km) stand off. A nice flexible backstop to the NMESIS Roguefires system.

Secretive Long Range Attack Missile For Marine AH-1s Is Now Being Flight Tested

The Long Range Attack Missile, based on an unknown Air Force weapon, will help ensure Marine AH-1Zs stay relevant in future high-end fights.

www.twz.com

Could somebody be convinced to bulk up our Griffon replacement programme to include some of those USMC H-1s in storage?

 

[dapaterson]

Tac Hel replacement is within One North Strong and Free, with minor funding starting next year.

Annex A: Funding - Canada.ca

A Renewed Vision for Canada’s Defence

www.canada.ca

To provide the Canadian Armed Forces with the speed and airlift capacity to assert Canada's sovereignty and respond to natural disasters and emergencies throughout the country, we will acquire a more modern, mobile and effective tactical helicopter capability. This capability may include a mix of crewed and uncrewed aircraft that will ensure Canada has modern aircraft to contribute to international operations with allies, including against threats from militaries with advanced capabilities.

 

[KevinB]

Could somebody be convinced to bulk up our Griffon replacement programme to include some of those USMC H-1s in storage?

The AH-1Z has very limited commonality with the Griffon. One would be better to swap the GLE to a UH-1Y and then you’d have a lot more commonality with the AH-1Z.

But it’s a legacy platform - regardless of if anything comes out of the V-280, the Huey platform isn’t getting a new lease on life.

 

[KevinB]

Tac Hel replacement is within One North Strong and Free, with minor funding starting next year.

Annex A: Funding - Canada.ca

A Renewed Vision for Canada’s Defence

www.canada.ca

To provide the Canadian Armed Forces with the speed and airlift capacity to assert Canada's sovereignty and respond to natural disasters and emergencies throughout the country, we will acquire a more modern, mobile and effective tactical helicopter capability. This capability may include a mix of crewed and uncrewed aircraft that will ensure Canada has modern aircraft to contribute to international operations with allies, including against threats from militaries with advanced capabilities.

17 Million for Tactical Helicopters isn’t buying much, other than creating a program and starting to fund a trial

18+B over 20 years smacks of kicking the can far down the road.

 

[GR66]

Would there be any sense in finding a single medium-lift helicopter to replace not only the Griffon but also the Cormorant and Cyclone? Standardized training and parts commonality.

 

[dapaterson]

Would there be any sense in finding a single medium-lift helicopter to replace not only the Griffon but also the Cormorant and Cyclone? Standardized training and parts commonality.

EH101?

 

[KevinB]

EH101?

Chinook…

 

[GR66]

Chinook…

I'd love more Chinooks as well...but I think something that can land on both the AOPS and a potential Kingston-Class replacement would be ideal.

 

[KevinB]

I'd love more Chinooks as well...but I think something that can land on both the AOPS and a potential Kingston-Class replacement would be ideal.

Hooks and Hawks

 

[GR66]

Hooks and Hawks

I like the Blackhawk but I think the utility of a rear ramp would be a huge benefit for moving ultra-light vehicles, UGV's etc. as well as for SAR and ASW versions if you're going for commonality. The AW-101/CH-149 has the added benefit of already being in service with the RCAF.

 

[KevinB]

I like the Blackhawk but I think the utility of a rear ramp would be a huge benefit for moving ultra-light vehicles, UGV's etc. as well as for SAR and ASW versions if you're going for commonality. The AW-101/CH-149 has the added benefit of already being in service with the RCAF.

The Hawk can sling most of those light vehicles. I understand the commonality to the CH-149 is a nice idea, but I think it’s a bit big for some tasks - and there are thousands of Hawks down here that guarantee that availability of spares etc will continue past 2050.

 

[Good2Golf]

I like the Blackhawk but I think the utility of a rear ramp would be a huge benefit for moving ultra-light vehicles, UGV's etc. as well as for SAR and ASW versions if you're going for commonality. The AW-101/CH-149 has the added benefit of already being in service with the RCAF.

Hawk has a hook. External loads are generally preferred in shorter-range ops, if longer, then use the proper tool for internalized transport….and 20,000+ lbs of HMMV/eqvt vehs over longer distances at higher speed is a known capability.

 

[GK .Dundas]

The Blackhawk is one one of the safest helicopters out there . I wouldn't want to ever to be in a impact wth any sort of hard ground but I would rather be in a Blackhawk.
I don't believe there's a helo in it's class that's as safe.

 

[CBH99]

I like the Blackhawk but I think the utility of a rear ramp would be a huge benefit for moving ultra-light vehicles, UGV's etc. as well as for SAR and ASW versions if you're going for commonality. The AW-101/CH-149 has the added benefit of already being in service with the RCAF.

I like your train of thought - it's logical and makes a lot of sense.

Getting something that has a rear ramp so it could possibly deploy the ultra light vehicles, UGV's, the on-boarding of patients during SAR type operations and of possible ASW use in terms of deploying stores.

Do any countries use the 'hook in an ASW role, or as a helicopter with a naval det?

Can 'hooks be navalized, really? (I imagine if ordered for that purpose, certain parts or systems could be made from different materials than standard?)

I've seen the Brits operate Apache's and Chinooks from flattops before, but I don't think it's ever been for an extended period not to mention a full deployment...

(if Black Hawks can also be manufactured as Sea Hawks, I imagine building a navalized Chinook is quite doable)


As much as Black Hawks would be a huge step up from the Griffon, I am inclined to wait on the future helicopter designs coming online down in the US.

If they do come to fruition, they'll be an entire capability generation ahead of current aircraft. If we did buy Black Hawks and more Chinooks, it wouldnt hurt us - but we'd also be criticized for expanding our fleet of yesterday's aircraft, and be trashed in the press even more about not having the capability to contribute to doorkicking operations.

(Now there's a golden opportunity from an industry perspective! Canada should take the initiative and try to work out a deal to manufacture parts for, or entire aircraft, when it comes to the V-280. Demand will be high for a long long time, and waiting times may encourage potential customers to seek out whatever China's knockoff version will be...we could help limit that waittime. Set it up similar to having Strykers & LAV's built in London)

 

[Good2Golf]

Canada should take the initiative and try to work out a deal to manufacture parts for, or entire aircraft, when it comes to the V-280. Demand will be high for a long long time, and waiting times may encourage potential customers to seek out whatever China's knockoff version will be...we could help limit that waittime.

Are you ruling out the building of V-280 knock-offs by China’s basal state north of the USA and south of the North Pole?

 

[KevinB]

I really wanted to like the 280. I just cannot as there are too many missions it can’t do.

Given the cancellation of FARA and the relatively slow roll of the 280, I suspect there will be Hawks flying well into 2070.

 

[Maxman1]

Then there's the newer "super medium" helicopters like the AW139/149 and the Bell 525 still being developed.