CFB Cold Lake Thread- Merged

[upandatom]

I barely know where to start......  :  ....but I'll limit myself to two points:

1.  "...a political Agenda"...especially with the upper-case 'Agenda,' sounds so conspiratorial.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:  anic:

Yes, the agenda is a post-war scaling back of military spending.  It happens in pretty much every country after every war -- including the post-Cold War 'decade of darkness.'  Democratic governments are responsible to the people -- people who generally don't want higher taxes and can't be convinced to buy "War Bonds" to pay for combat equipment when they perceive no justifiable threat, and see greater utility in paying down debt or adjusting spending towards social benefits and infrastructure.  I'm not weighing in here on where Defence monies should be spent, just that cuts are inevitable.

2.  And as for my old hobby-horse of "opinions versus informed opinions," where people in various threads here are pointing out the difficulties of sustaining essential family requirements and maintaining critical combat capabilities -- hell, getting boots and mukluks -- you're going to whine about losing a CISM sport?! 

Big-picture thinking at its finest.    :facepalm:




There's always as silver-lining -- always.  Reducing CISM sports frees up more time for people to read, understand, and hopefully inform their thinking.  :nod:

I did not mean in the event to cut back on kit we need, It was more of a we have this here, we dont anymore- Using CISM as an example for one of the many things we have seen pulled away, which is understandable with the cutbacks. (stating the fact we had money for it before, not now, not whining about it)

Do you really wanna start the boot argument here? We have wasted millions on boots, if not more, yet here we are, getting ordered to return boots because they are either falling apart or just pieces of garbage. Stuff like this is the money we need to cut back on, the rampant needless spending on new shiny boots, without having a proper trial run of them.

"a political Agenda"-Sorry, that was a typo, not meant to seem conspiracy theory on you.

 

[eliminator]

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/news/article.page?doc=chief-of-the-defence-staff-visits-4-wing-cold-lake/hsbjlxra

Any announcements made?

 

[smale436]

I was unable to attend but the majority of people I know who did attend basically summed it up as being a regurgitation of previous "we know there are issues and are trying to solve them" speeches. In fact, a lot of people who arrived at work after the meeting were actually quite pissed off and described it as a waste of time. I highly doubt there were any announcements of substance about CFHA or PLD as someone would have mentioned it.

Again, I could be wrong but that was the general opinion of the 8 or so people I talked to.

 

[OldSolduer]

I was unable to attend but the majority of people I know who did attend basically summed it up as being a regurgitation of previous "we know there are issues and are trying to solve them" speeches. In fact, a lot of people who arrived at work after the meeting were actually quite pissed off and described it as a waste of time. I highly doubt there were any announcements of substance about CFHA or PLD as someone would have mentioned it.

Again, I could be wrong but that was the general opinion of the 8 or so people I talked to.

The CDS will not speak in specifics.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Then who will really tackle this problem?  It's all nice talk and all, but in the mean time, people that need support don't have it... 

 

[George Wallace]

Then who will really tackle this problem?  It's all nice talk and all, but in the mean time, people that need support don't have it...

Not to be offensive, but you still have to get some more TI and start to see how slow the wheels of bureaucracy really work.  This is not McDonalds where you walk in and get your burger and walk out with instant gratification.

 

[Old Sweat]

Hmmm, wonder how General Rick or General Walt would have addressed the issue.  >

Sometimes the right words in the right tone at least make people feel they have not been abandoned.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not to be offensive, but you still have to get some more TI and start to see how slow the wheels of bureaucracy really work.  This is not McDonalds where you walk in and get your burger and walk out with instant gratification.

: 

Then who will really tackle this problem?  It's all nice talk and all, but in the mean time, people that need support don't have it...

I would imagine just another "town hall".  Pointed questions are asked and answered vaguely with allot of fluff and catch phrases with out actually giving any answers.  Seems to be the way our upper echelon do things.

 

[OldSolduer]

The CDS will most likely task CMP to sort this out. CMP will look to DG Family Support Services (I forget the silly long acronym he has) who will task an overworked LCol who will pass it off to an overworked Major who will hire a class B captain to look at it and come up with COAs.
The captain will have to hire a Cpl to do admin work, and ask the Cpl what the best solution is.

There you have it.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The CDS will most likely task CMP to sort this out. CMP will look to DG Family Support Services (I forget the silly long acronym he has) who will task an overworked LCol who will pass it off to an overworked Major who will hire a class B captain to look at it and come up with COAs.
The captain will have to hire a Cpl to do admin work, and ask the Cpl what the best solution is.

There you have it.

I wish it were that simple ...

This is an entitlement that forms part of a very complex pay and benefits equation.

While the base salaries for CF members are 'set' based on benchmark salaries paid to public servants ~ most negotiated by PS unions ~ benefits and entitlements are, in many cases, unique to the CF, in recognition of the exigences of the service. BUT: there is an budget 'envelope' within which the entire package, salary and benefits, must fit ~ an envelope set by the Treasury Board. Think of it as a balloon: you can squeeze the balloon and expand one part, but only at the expense of another part.

Some people will, no doubt, say that post differentials and the like are an unnecessary complication. "There are good postings and bad postings," they will say, "and, over a career, they balance out for most people. Let's do away with post differentials and give everyone a pay raise: the greatest good for the greatest number sort of principle." Others will say, "No, the short term pain is too great. Let's forgo a pay raise next year and upgrade post differentials."

My guess is that the Treasury Board Secretariat is already seized with the issue and that negotiations, of sorts, are underway. TB might even have made an offer: more this for less that ... and no matter what is finally agreed on the CF members' behalf there will be less of something, unless the unsatisfactory status quo is maintained.

There may be a Class B captain and an overworked colonel somewhere in the equation but, mainly, it will be civilians, most not in DND, who will decide how this ends.

 

[dapaterson]

Precisely.

Per the National Defence Act,

Treasury Board’s power to make regulations

12 (3) The Treasury Board may make regulations

(c) providing for any matter concerning the pay, allowances and reimbursement of expenses of officers and non-commissioned members for which the Treasury Board considers regulations are necessary or desirable to carry out the purposes or provisions of this Act.

 

[PetitorVeritas]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so I apologize if this topic is covered somewhere else, but the search function did not work for me when I attempted to find a similar topic (something about too much activity on the server). I am starting this thread in hopes of getting some information as I've heard it is quite likely for new AVN techs to be posted to cold lake upon completion of training at Borden.My question is a simple one but is a deciding factor in whether or not I will be submitting my application in June. What I need to know is, given the coverage in the news lately and a rather damming report by the Ombudsman last year, can I survive a long posting in Cold Lake financially speaking? And not just survive, but even have a small nest egg at the end of it?

I realize there are many factors that need to be considered in answering that question, so let me give a little background. I am a 30 year old with a wife and two children with a third on the way in August. I want nothing more than to be an AVN tech in the air force. My wife is behind me 100% and we have been researching it for the last few months to make sure that it is a financially viable option for us. Please understand that this decision is not about the money alone, I truly do want to serve my country, but my first priority is to my wife and children and if I can't support them financially than I have to give up the dream of the air force no matter how much disappointment it may bring me.

Now, I've researched the cost of off base housing and the RHUs, and it's obvious that the RHUs are more financially viable for a family my size (I've lived in pretty poor conditions before, so the condition of the housing won't scare me off). Seeing as how the rent is limited to 25% and given the relatively high wage of a junior NCM (even at level 3 Private pay), I don't see why a comfortable life would be so hard to maintain. But then I read some of the horror stories here and look at the news coverage and think that if do get posted to 4 Wing after Borden, as I hear many new AVN techs are, I may not be able to provide for my family, let alone eventually have enough to buy a house of our own.

My wife and I are pretty frugal and have survived in Ottawa for the last three years on student loans while I was in college, so I know how to budget, but the idea of living that frugally for potentially up to 15 years (as some have said a posting in Cold Lake can last that long) is a terrible thought. I want to be able to provide the things I never got as a child in a low income family, not put my kids through the same crap.

So, are there any junior rank NCMs out there who are also raising three kids in Cold Lake on single income, or who know anybody who is? How are you/they faring? Can someone break down the budgetary concerns and extra costs that make it impossible to survive in what is, in all other aspects, a well-paying job? I want to do this as a career but I will not burden my family with near-poverty, nor do I want to burden the taxpayers with another dissatisfied airman.

 

[PetitorVeritas]

I feel rather stupid having just read that you lose access to this forum upon reaching 250 posts, so any user of these boards who has the experience and knowledge to answer my question likely does not have the ability to read it.

Yet when I tried to post my question in another forum it told me that I was not allowed to. Are there any forums where new members can get the opinion of more experienced people?

 

[KerryBlue]

The best place for this question is probably in the Home Front forum, as all members have access to that forum. Most here are new applicants.

The Home front forum

http://army.ca/forums/index.php?board=49.0

 

[PetitorVeritas]

Thanks, I was under the mistaken impression that this was the only forum new members were allowed to post in.

 

[Griffon]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so I apologize if this topic is covered somewhere else, but the search function did not work for me when I attempted to find a similar topic (something about too much activity on the server). I am starting this thread in hopes of getting some information as I've heard it is quite likely for new AVN techs to be posted to cold lake upon completion of training at Borden.My question is a simple one but is a deciding factor in whether or not I will be submitting my application in June. What I need to know is, given the coverage in the news lately and a rather damming report by the Ombudsman last year, can I survive a long posting in Cold Lake financially speaking? And not just survive, but even have a small nest egg at the end of it?

I realize there are many factors that need to be considered in answering that question, so let me give a little background. I am a 30 year old with a wife and two children with a third on the way in August. I want nothing more than to be an AVN tech in the air force. My wife is behind me 100% and we have been researching it for the last few months to make sure that it is a financially viable option for us. Please understand that this decision is not about the money alone, I truly do want to serve my country, but my first priority is to my wife and children and if I can't support them financially than I have to give up the dream of the air force no matter how much disappointment it may bring me.

Now, I've researched the cost of off base housing and the RHUs, and it's obvious that the RHUs are more financially viable for a family my size (I've lived in pretty poor conditions before, so the condition of the housing won't scare me off). Seeing as how the rent is limited to 25% and given the relatively high wage of a junior NCM (even at level 3 Private pay), I don't see why a comfortable life would be so hard to maintain. But then I read some of the horror stories here and look at the news coverage and think that if do get posted to 4 Wing after Borden, as I hear many new AVN techs are, I may not be able to provide for my family, let alone eventually have enough to buy a house of our own.

My wife and I are pretty frugal and have survived in Ottawa for the last three years on student loans while I was in college, so I know how to budget, but the idea of living that frugally for potentially up to 15 years (as some have said a posting in Cold Lake can last that long) is a terrible thought. I want to be able to provide the things I never got as a child in a low income family, not put my kids through the same crap.

So, are there any junior rank NCMs out there who are also raising three kids in Cold Lake on single income, or who know anybody who is? How are you/they faring? Can someone break down the budgetary concerns and extra costs that make it impossible to survive in what is, in all other aspects, a well-paying job? I want to do this as a career but I will not burden my family with near-poverty, nor do I want to burden the taxpayers with another dissatisfied airman.

Lucky for you, I read more than I post.

I lived in Cold Lake for 10 years, so I know a bit about what you're getting yourself into.  I knew a few single income families there that made it work, so I know it's possible.  Keep in mind that, currently, members posted to Cold Lake receive a Post Living Differential of $319 per month in addition to their pay, which works out to $100+ per pay check, and they also enjoy the lowest tax rates in the country.  Income taxes are low, and Albertans only pay GST on their purchases.

I personally believe that many Cold Lake members fall into a trap of seeing all the new trucks, flashy cars, skidoos, boats, RVs, and ATVs around town, leading them to make purchases of the like on their own when they really can't afford to.  I'm sure this isn't always the case, but I'm sure it contributes.  I moved to NB a couple years ago and the cost of living here is just as high, if not a little higher than it was when we lived out there.

Housing is expensive, yes.  The RHUs aren't in the best condition.  But it's doable.  If the base was in an economically depressed area then you wouldn't be hearing the same issues.

All this to say that if you are careful with your money, you can make a living in Cold Lake just as you can anywhere else in the country.  You won't have much left over, but you can make it.  And if your wife ever decides that she does want to work, businesses in Cold Lake seem to always be looking for some good help.

 

[PetitorVeritas]

Thank you, Griffon, for your post. I tend to agree with you in regards to the high cost of living everywhere. We currently live in Ottawa, which is consistently ranked in the top five most expensive cities in Canada, and we make it through fine on my measly single income of $35,000 (gross pay, not net). I've just spent the last two nights reading stories on here and other sites about CF members working second jobs just to make ends meet and still falling behind, people who swear up and down that you can't survive on $50-60k a year and people who have claimed bankruptcy (and many of these people are raising only one child, not three). Couple that with supposedly miserable living conditions and the highest attrition rates in the country, and it got me second guessing myself about my career choices. Obviously, there must be something to all the stories, but as long as I can speak to a few people who have successfully raised families there, then I know we can make it through.

I don't need new vehicles or fancy toys, just a relatively stable and healthy environment to raise my kids. As long as we have a roof over our heads and food on our table, we can make it as a family.

Now, obviously I know that I still have to make it through an arduous application process and even then there's no guarantee that I'll make it in and get posted to Cold Lake, but I could not with good conscience knowingly doom my family to abject poverty, no matter how remote the chance.

It is good to hear that there are work opportunities for my spouse. With a pregnancy in 2012 and emergency C-section followed by hernia surgery followed by another pregnancy, she's been out of work awhile.

 

[Quirky]

The reality is, you will find it very difficult to live on a privates salary with a large family in Cold Lake. I know plenty of single Privates with no financial debts and they still struggle month to month. Unless your spouse will eventually find a job, I don't think the quality of life you'll have is worth it. Then again a posting to Cold Lake is not automatic.

 

[goingcrazy]

As someone currently in Cold Lake I can say that my husbands cpl pay just barely covers our day to day living expenses for our family of five with no room for extras or emergencies. While I agree that there do seem to be families here that complain about the cost of living while enjoying many toys there are just as many that are actually struggling. Spec pay is also factor as there are many that don't recieve it that are just managing while those that have it are taking second jobs. The cost of living is high here. The hardships are there. I just think the main problem is its those with poor financial planning abilities that are screaming the loudest for more in turn  discrediting the rest of us. As much as I hate to admit it, it can be done but I wouldn't recommend it. That said, we love the lifestyle and know our time in Cold Lake is limited.

 

[PetitorVeritas]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. It is great (and sobering) to hear from those with first hand experience living in areas with higher costs of living. I know that a Cold Lake posting isn't guaranteed, but it is a worst case scenario that I have to take into consideration before jumping headfirst into what I want to be a lifetime commitment.

goingcrazy, I'm sorry to hear that you and your family are struggling but it is nice to see that you are staying positive and that the experience hasn't completely tainted your view of life in the Forces.

My wife and I obviously have some serious thinking to do. That said, I know my family is strong and that, if others are able to make the best of a bad situation, so can we.