CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

[Altair]

Not sure what you mean:

Countries with Single Payer 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

Sorry; if your using the Fraser Institute as your foundation, we won't have much of discussion.

I won't readily dismiss any role of for-profit in our system simply because I don't understand the complex issues, but have a hard time accepting that to introduction of private insurance - most likely US-based - won't be the beginning of the end.

Think more UK or Italian system.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Profit" is how we learned to motivate people to invest. If you want more capacity, you need to allow profit. If profit is possible in some ventures but not in others, productive capital typically winds up behind the profitable ventures.

People against profit might as well piss into the wind.

 

[OldSolduer]

"Profit" is how we learned to motivate people to invest. If you want more capacity, you need to allow profit. If profit is possible in some ventures but not in others, productive capital typically winds up behind the profitable ventures.

People against profit might as well piss into the wind.

Here in the SSR Manitoba some docs tried to open private MRI clinics. They were quickly denounced by the then NDP government who bought the clinics outright. The wait time for an MRI is now 17-33 weeks, depending on which district and hospital can get you in.

 

[Altair]

"Profit" is how we learned to motivate people to invest. If you want more capacity, you need to allow profit. If profit is possible in some ventures but not in others, productive capital typically winds up behind the profitable ventures.

People against profit might as well piss into the wind.

Yes, its clear that allowing private insurance and private hospitals allowed to operate outside the provincial framework while not allowing any form of opt out by those who choose to utilize it would relieve pressure on the public system.

Again, 400 ICU beds and staff for 4.4 million Albertans and Alberta has one of the best health care systems in the nation.

Its disgusting.

 

[Altair]

Here in the SSR Manitoba some docs tried to open private MRI clinics. They were quickly denounced by the then NDP government who bought the clinics outright. The wait time for an MRI is now 17-33 weeks, depending on which district and hospital can get you in.

When people think private healthcare they think of the nightmare scenario that is the US healthcare system.

What needs to be done is show people how the top 10 healthcare systems in the world have a decent mix of private and public healthcare, with the role of the private system being to take pressure off of the public system. If 1 in 10 decide they would rather pay for healthcare and get expedited service, that's 10 percent less people using the public system. Faster wait times, more time per patient, less costs associated with delayed care.

Meanwhile this pandemic has laid bare how criminally dysfunctional the Canadian healthcare system is in comparison to our peers in Europe. Not the USA, Europe, home of socialized medicine.

 

[daftandbarmy]

When people think private healthcare they think of the nightmare scenario that is the US healthcare system.

What needs to be done is show people how the top 10 healthcare systems in the world have a decent mix of private and public healthcare, with the role of the private system being to take pressure off of the public system. If 1 in 10 decide they would rather pay for healthcare and get expedited service, that's 10 percent less people using the public system. Faster wait times, more time per patient, less costs associated with delayed care.

Meanwhile this pandemic has laid bare how criminally dysfunctional the Canadian healthcare system is in comparison to our peers in Europe. Not the USA, Europe, home of socialized medicine.

Yeah, about that 'more awesome than Canada's' British system:

Things Fall Apart: the British Health Crisis 2010–2020​

​

Abstract​

Background
A very large number of studies have reported a stalling of health improvements in the UK since 2010.

Sources of data
Almost all relevant data are produced by the Office for National Statistics and other national statistical agencies.

Areas of agreement
There has been a dramatic slowdown in life expectancy and diverging trends in infant mortality in the UK as a whole and England and Wales, respectively.

Areas of controversy
Many commentators are loath to describe the falls in life expectancy as actual falls or to ascribe blame to the political situation in the UK.

Growing points
Health trends in the UK are worrying and raise important questions about government policies.

Areas timely for developing research
These findings point to a need for greater investment in research on the political determinants of health, on the timely detection and interpretation of evidence of worsening health, and on how political and policy processes respond to such findings.

Things Fall Apart: the British Health Crisis 2010–2020

AbstractBackground. A very large number of studies have reported a stalling of health improvements in the UK since 2010.Sources of data. Almost all relevan

academic.oup.com

 

[Good2Golf]

Here in the SSR Manitoba some docs tried to open private MRI clinics. They were quickly denounced by the then NDP government who bought the clinics outright. The wait time for an MRI is now 17-33 weeks, depending on which district and hospital can get you in.

Speaking about the reality of the multi-tier health care system in Canada…it firmly exists already….and not just pharmaceuticals, but lab testing, imaging and more. If I have a significant concern, and it requires an MRI and I’m booked 20-30 weeks out at a public MRI, I’d be quite content to pay $700 next week to get one at a private imaging clinic minutes from my (Ontario) home. It surprises me about how uneducated people actually are about how the health system works in their own province (or even that healthcare is delivered by the provinces, vice the magic of the federal government). I’m less surprised when politicians of whatever colour capitalize on that ignorance to divide and conquer and retain votes.

 

[Altair]

Yeah, about that 'more awesome than Canada's' British system:

Things Fall Apart: the British Health Crisis 2010–2020​

​

Abstract​

Background
A very large number of studies have reported a stalling of health improvements in the UK since 2010.

Sources of data
Almost all relevant data are produced by the Office for National Statistics and other national statistical agencies.

Areas of agreement
There has been a dramatic slowdown in life expectancy and diverging trends in infant mortality in the UK as a whole and England and Wales, respectively.

Areas of controversy
Many commentators are loath to describe the falls in life expectancy as actual falls or to ascribe blame to the political situation in the UK.

Growing points
Health trends in the UK are worrying and raise important questions about government policies.

Areas timely for developing research
These findings point to a need for greater investment in research on the political determinants of health, on the timely detection and interpretation of evidence of worsening health, and on how political and policy processes respond to such findings.

Things Fall Apart: the British Health Crisis 2010–2020

AbstractBackground. A very large number of studies have reported a stalling of health improvements in the UK since 2010.Sources of data. Almost all relevan

academic.oup.com

The NHS has taken a bit of a tumble, imagine this.

The NHS has taken a bit of a tumble and STILL ranks much higher than the Canadian healthcare system.

the UK has 7.3 intensive care beds per 100,000 people, Germany has 33.8 and the USA 34.3.

Alberta has 6 intensive care beds per 100,000 and that is AFTER surge capacity being brough online. Before that it was around 4.5

This is the best well funded system in Canada.

 

[Altair]

Speaking about the reality of the multi-tier health care system in Canada…it firmly exists already….and not just pharmaceuticals, but lab testing, imaging and more. If I have a significant concern, and it requires an MRI and I’m booked 20-30 weeks out at a public MRI, I’d be quite content to pay $700 next week to get one at a private imaging clinic minutes from my (Ontario) home. It surprises me about how uneducated people actually are about how the health system works in their own province (or even that healthcare is delivered by the provinces, vice the magic of the federal government). I’m less surprised when politicians of whatever colour capitalize on that ignorance to divide and conquer and retain votes.

No insurance though, and no private hospitals.

There are over 1000 for-profit hospitals in France representing 39 percent of all hospitals in that country for example.

The French healthcare system is ranked in the top 10. Canada is ranked in the 30s. We both spend about 11 percent of GDP on healthcare.

 

[Brad Sallows]

What is the optimal number of ICU beds, and what factors determine it?

Overcapacity is effectively as bad as undercapacity because it represents resource misallocation, unless literally every aspect is overcapacity (in which case there is misallocation of resources away from unrelated enterprises, unless literally ever possible field of endeavour is overcapacity, which we know by observation is not the case).

A: "We have a machine that goes 'ping'."

B: "We have 11 of them!"

A: "We have never needed more than 1."

B: "We have 11!"

 

[KevinB]

No insurance though, and no private hospitals.

There are over 1000 for-profit hospitals in France representing 39 percent of all hospitals in that country for example.

The French healthcare system is ranked in the top 10. Canada is ranked in the 30s. We both spend about 11 percent of GDP on healthcare.

I'm not fully tracking your argument - the problem is Canada doesn't really allow for a full two tier system - so you can't complain when a two tier system with the same percentage in Health Care does better -- the 39% of For Profit Hospitals in France allows it to jump way ahead of Canada.
If Canada embraced a full Profit system on top of the .Gov provided net - then of course there would be a larger capacity.
Right now as I read it, any Province allowing a Private For Profit Hospital will have a segment of its Health Care (HCT) funding clawed back -- see the Canada Health Act.

 

[Altair]

I'm not fully tracking your argument - the problem is Canada doesn't really allow for a full two tier system - so you can't complain when a two tier system with the same percentage in Health Care does better -- the 39% of For Profit Hospitals in France allows it to jump way ahead of Canada.

I'm not complaining. I'm showing how France achieves much better results by allowing a full two tier system compared to the mediocre results the Canadian and American single tier systems achieve.

If Canada embraced a full Profit system on top of the .Gov provided net - then of course there would be a larger capacity.

Yes, which is why I'm saying that the Canadian health care system should be tossed into the trash, lit of fire, and never looked at again while we adopt a European style system, built from the ground up if need be.

Right now as I read it, any Province allowing a Private For Profit Hospital will have a segment of its Health Care (HCT) funding clawed back -- see the Canada Health Act.

Rip up the Canada health act and start from scratch.

 

[KevinB]

I'm not complaining. I'm showing how France achieves much better results by allowing a full two tier system compared to the mediocre results the Canadian and American single tier systems achieve.

Gotcha

Yes, which is why I'm saying that the Canadian health care system should be tossed into the trash, lit of fire, and never looked at again while we adopt a European style system, built from the ground up if need be.

Rip up the Canada health act and start from scratch.

Interestingly enough at the time - the CHA was universally supported from all parties.

 

[Altair]

What is the optimal number of ICU beds, and what factors determine it?

Overcapacity is effectively as bad as undercapacity because it represents resource misallocation, unless literally every aspect is overcapacity (in which case there is misallocation of resources away from unrelated enterprises, unless literally ever possible field of endeavour is overcapacity, which we know by observation is not the case).

A: "We have a machine that goes 'ping'."

B: "We have 11 of them!"

A: "We have never needed more than 1."

B: "We have 11!"

I would agree with you if we got anything out of undercapacity. If healthcare costs in Canada were half of what France or the UK or Germany spent, and we had 1/2 or 1/3 of the ICU capacity of those nations as a result, sure, there is a cost benefit analysis that can be argued.

We spend the same percentage of GDP on health as the top nations on the planet (Except the USA which spends a lot more as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, largely because of the profit factor baked into their system) and achieve far worst results.

So for your example.
A: "We have a machine that goes 'ping'."

B: "We have 11 of them!"

C: "We have 5 of them!"

A: "We have never needed more than 1."

B: "We have 11!"

C: "We have 5!"

A: "What does it cost you?"

B: "11 Percent of GDP!"

C: "11 Percent of GDP!"

 

[Altair]

Gotcha

Interestingly enough at the time - the CHA was universally supported from all parties.

It was a interesting experiment that has run face first into the brick wall of reality.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Rip up the Canada health act and start from scratch.

Probably harder than re-opening the constitution. Big money involved.

 

[KevinB]

It was a interesting experiment that has run face first into the brick wall of reality.

Like the Canadian Constitution?

 

[Altair]

Like the Canadian Constitution?

No.

 

[Altair]

Probably harder than re-opening the constitution. Big money involved.

Easier actually.

Unlike equalization, health care is a provincial responsibility, funded by the federal government. Beyond needing to provide funding to have not provinces to ensure equal levels of care across the nation, there is nothing preventing the feds from playing hardball and withholding federal funding to provinces for healthcare if they do not agree with reform.

 

[PMedMoe]

Maybe this thread should be split into a Public vs. Private Healthcare discussion.