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CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

brihard

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Ummmmmmmmmm..........................Army?

What about the part where they have a communicable disease that presents an unpredictable but fairly considerable health hazard? I would think that if they’ve been identified as infected, sanitation, hygiene, and a climate conducive to maintaining one’s health would be called for. I’d love to know Moe’s thoughts on this.

Like frig, did they not have a plan for COVID CASEVAC and properly set up hard stand isolation? Hell, call it a good opportunity for a real life exercise of some more niche capabilities. But those troops should be getting properly looked after. This is not a good look.
 

PMedMoe

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What about the part where they have a communicable disease that presents an unpredictable but fairly considerable health hazard? I would think that if they’ve been identified as infected, sanitation, hygiene, and a climate conducive to maintaining one’s health would be called for. I’d love to know Moe’s thoughts on this.

Like frig, did they not have a plan for COVID CASEVAC and properly set up hard stand isolation? Hell, call it a good opportunity for a real life exercise of some more niche capabilities. But those troops should be getting properly looked after. This is not a good look.
I already posted. Send the sick home to quarantine. Or better yet, call End Ex.

So glad I'm retired.
 

Weinie

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COVID-19 hits large-scale training exercise at CFB Wainwright​

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Soldiers participating in large-scale exercises at CFB Wainwright say Canadian Armed Forces members who have tested positive for COVID-19 are isolating in small, unheated tents with limited ability to wash themselves.

Up to 2,500 soldiers, mostly from Edmonton, are participating in Maple Resolve and Agile Ram in a training area at Canadian Forces Base Wainwright in eastern Alberta. The exercises are expected to wrap up in June.

Two soldiers who spoke to CBC in late April said members of their unit have tested positive for COVID-19 and are spending isolation in small tents.

They said some tents are unheated, and sick soldiers haven't been able to properly wash themselves.

They said they were concerned that the isolating soldiers were being checked on infrequently.
So now we command the CAF via the media? Shake your head....really, really hard.
 

brihard

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So now we command the CAF via the media? Shake your head.

Obviously those of us commenting from the outside are taking the reports at face value. Needless to say if the picture being painted isn’t accurate, there’s a public interest in correcting that.

If the reports ARE accurate, then that’s not what right looks like.
 

Weinie

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Obviously those of us commenting from the outside are taking the reports at face value. Needless to say if the picture being painted isn’t accurate, there’s a public interest in correcting that.

If the reports ARE accurate, then that’s not what right looks like.
And there is a media effort that assures that any interest garners Internet likes, and thus ensures economic viability.
 

PuckChaser

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Two soldiers who spoke to CBC in late April said members of their unit have tested positive for COVID-19 and are spending isolation in small tents.

They said some tents are unheated, and sick soldiers haven't been able to properly wash themselves.

They said they were concerned that the isolating soldiers were being checked on infrequently.
I didn't know showers and luxurious accommodations beat COVID, learn new science every day.

Also hilarious that the troops are "checked on infrequently" but have the means to text their buddies that they aren't being checked on often enough.

Cancel the Ex or send the sick home to quarantine.

Here's a question: Did everyone going on Ex have a negative test prior? Have they been in contact with others outside of the Ex?
Send the sick home, great idea. We'll take COVID positive patients, put them onto commercial flights wearing random pieces of cloth as masks and then have them quarantine at their houses with their families so we can not even bother to contain a small outbreak onto an isolated military facility. Or they can sit in a tent for 14 days with their cell phones, stop whining and be perfectly fine.

They also hide way down at the bottom that they ran a vaccination clinic for Ex participants, and 150 folks refused. Are these isolating soldiers some of those that refused? Ontario has only seen approx 2% of folks who have had 1 shot of a vaccine later test positive for COVID. Maybe the state of the isolation facilities will make folks think twice about refusing a harmless needle.
 

Blackadder1916

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I already posted. Send the sick home to quarantine. Or better yet, call End Ex.

So glad I'm retired.

I wonder which idiot highly trained staff officer wrote the med annex to the Op Order. Apologies. From experience, I know that often sometimes medical advice to the pointy end big heads will be ignored or modified to meet the desired objectives of the commander. In the old days, this wasn't much of a big deal, but one would think that after twenty years of operations in which medical support played a highly visible part and over a year of experience dealing with Covid, someone would get some basics right.

The questioning of media reliabilty aside, some items from the previously linked story stand out for me.

Capt. Derek Reid said exact case numbers can't be disclosed because of a policy to not reveal specifics about particular groups.

So, a spokesperson from the military (brigade? PAFFO) has responded, so, can we take what he says as accurate?

Reid said isolating soldiers are checked on daily by medical staff, and could be moved to a medical isolation facility if necessary.

Soldiers who test positive isolate for 10 days or until their symptoms are gone — whichever is longer, Reid said.
Then soldiers are being isolated for 10 or more days. Maybe some clarification as how often per day they are checked and who is responsible for the isolation accommodations. It's one thing if the soldiers who test positive or present minor symptoms come under control of medical authorities until they can be cleared and RTUed; it's another matter if the quarantined are kept in unit lines, given a tent and told to stay away from those who aren't "sick, lame and lazy" (yes, I'm being hyperbolic, but it would sound like any number of Sgts Major I've known).

Reid said learning to survive and thrive in "austere conditions" is a fundamental part of military field training. He said he has confirmed isolating personnel have regular access to shower facilities, but that heating is only available for tents large enough to fit a stove.

"However, our soldiers are well equipped and accustomed to dealing with cold conditions (and temperatures lower than those seen recently in Wainwright)," he said in an email.

The common wisdom used to be "any fool can be uncomfortable", but then I had a BBBrigade CCCommander who took training as you fight to another level and had a philosophy of taking every opportunity to make conditions as miserable and tough as possible in the belief that led to better training. Digging and living in slit trenches on a Dvr Wheeled Crse must have been fun. I wonder if Capt Reid (or his Bde Comd) stammers.

He said close contacts of positive cases are placed in quarantine for 14 days, but in some cases are retested at 10 days to allow for a "restricted return" to training.

So, the first two weeks of this exercise are a no-go for these folks. But how long is the ex? (From May 1 until May 11, approximately 2,500 Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel will take part in Exercise MAPLE RESOLVE 21 in Wainwright, Alberta.) Not a lot of useful training time for them after quarantine.

In an interview last month, Col. Wade Rutland, commander of 1 Canadian Mechanized Brigade, outlined plans for testing on arrival and cohorting until results came back.

Closing the barn door after the horse has bolted?

Reid said the armed forces ran a vaccine clinic for Maple Resolve participants from April 26-29 and more than 1,700 doses were administered, which is about 90 per cent uptake. He said 150 members chose not to get the vaccine.

Getting a vaccine one to four days prior to a gathering doesn't work so well when the expectation is that the vaccine requires a minimum of two weeks before being effective.

Sorry, I'm not impressed.
 

PMedMoe

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Send the sick home, great idea. We'll take COVID positive patients, put them onto commercial flights wearing random pieces of cloth as masks and then have them quarantine at their houses with their families so we can not even bother to contain a small outbreak onto an isolated military facility. Or they can sit in a tent for 14 days with their cell phones, stop whining and be perfectly fine.
I was under the impression that most were from Alberta so minimal flights would be required. Hey wait, don't we have aircraft??

Okay, scratch that idea.

Make sure they have heating, adequate washing facilities (no sharing wash basins), adequate ventilation, adequate spacing between cots/beds and dedicated medical staff to look after them. Make sure their meals are delivered and that they have a marked outdoor area and separate blue rockets (or whatever they use out there).
 

Blackadder1916

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Send the sick home, great idea. We'll take COVID positive patients, put them onto commercial flights wearing random pieces of cloth as masks and then have them quarantine at their houses with their families so we can not even bother to contain a small outbreak onto an isolated military facility. Or they can sit in a tent for 14 days with their cell phones, stop whining and be perfectly fine.

It's called "medical evacuation". It's something we used to train for. I imagine they still do. It's something that used to be included as policy such as how long would someone who cannot be returned to duty be held before being evacuated either to recuperate at their home (base) or sent to another facility (medical or pers holding) that could provide the services they need. Keeping pers who aren't at full duty and are a drain on medical or admin resources for forces in the field is stupid. We used to learn that stuff and in fact, that's how we worked in Germany on formation exercises (FALLEX, REFORGER). During the Gulf War such an evacuation policy accounted for the majority of the patients that we saw coming through the AeroMedical Staging Facility at Ramstein.
 

PuckChaser

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No amount of heating is adequate when living in mod tents (without liners because we can't afford those) in Wainwright in May. Oddly, no amount of air conditioning works either when the weather changes from Alberta Winter to Southern Ontario summer in the span of 3 hours...

If these folks had fevers, or chills, I'd be pushing to move them someplace else as a Tp WO. If they just tested positive and are asymptomatic, they can hang out in the same conditions as everyone else. Honestly if they were actually sick the UMS or Base Hospital would be taking over and moving where they can recover. Since they're still with their chain of command and being monitored by the MO, they've probably just got a cough and can't taste how bad the rations are.
 

PuckChaser

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It's called "medical evacuation". It's something we used to train for. I imagine they still do. It's something that used to be included as policy such as how long would someone who cannot be returned to duty be held before being evacuated either to recuperate at their home (base) or sent to another facility (medical or pers holding) that could provide the services they need. Keeping pers who aren't at full duty and are a drain on medical or admin resources for forces in the field is stupid. We used to learn that stuff and in fact, that's how we worked in Germany on formation exercises (FALLEX, REFORGER). During the Gulf War such an evacuation policy accounted for the majority of the patients that we saw coming through the AeroMedical Staging Facility at Ramstein.
Medical evacuation is for sick people. If someone pops hot for COVID but are asymptomatic, isolated from their group and are being fed, why the heck would we spin up MEDEVAC? They're not "in the field". They're likely on that massive camp akin to a Mod Tent Kandahar that goes up every year. Petawawa has a whole bunch of people in isolation (I've heard around 60), and the Base is MAXED out on living space for them. If Petawawa can barely handle 60 people, I strongly doubt Wainwright could support literally anyone other than in that encampment.

People like to bitch and moan, but if the Army was truly being the Army, these folks would have flown to Wainwright 2 weeks early, isolated there in the same conditions and then been allowed to continue the exercise. Or ordered into the Base of their home units for 2 weeks, isolated, and then head to Wainwright. Someone, somewhere said "we'll take the risk on a couple guys popping hot because isolating everyone for 2 weeks before this thing isn't worth the morale hit". The Army can always make things worse if you complain enough...
 

Blackadder1916

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Medical evacuation is for sick people. If someone pops hot for COVID but are asymptomatic, isolated from their group and are being fed, why the heck would we spin up MEDEVAC? They're not "in the field".

"MEDEVAC" sounds so important when you write it like that but is not something that needs to be "spun up". I've evacced no-duff patients (as well as casualties, there is a difference) by box and road ambulances, buses (ambulance and regular), deuces and MLVWs, 5/4 cargo, passenger car (PMV and military owned), panel van, passenger van, fixed and rotary wing aircraft (and one time each by Air Canada and Air France) and even once in an LCM. Sometimes it was quick notice with a sense of urgency (that D5W TKO feeling) most often it was fairly routine with lots of leadtime and not always necessary to provide in transit care to the patient. But patients they were nonetheless. They may not have looked or acted sick but because they were being transported because of a medical diagnosis (and a positive Covid test is a diagnosis) it was considered a medical evacuation.

How would I evac non-symptomatic Covid-19 patients from their current location in Wainwright to Edmonton (where many of them may be homed) - passenger vans; none in the co-driver seat; medical attendant probably not required; separate patients in the rear seats; standard PPE precautions; if numbers make it practical use a bus instead; if no van or bus in current holdings, rent.
 

Jarnhamar

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People contracting Covid and going down was inevitible with that many people in close proximity.

This would have been a great opertunity for pragmatic training and exercise our medical sides ability to deal with mass casualties who are injured for longer than 45 minutes. And legitimate patients.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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People contracting Covid and going down was inevitible with that many people in close proximity.

This would have been a great opertunity for pragmatic training and exercise our medical sides ability to deal with mass casualties who are injured for longer than 45 minutes. And legitimate patients.

Where is somebodies glory in making both reality and sense?
 

daftandbarmy

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COVID-19 hits large-scale training exercise at CFB Wainwright​

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Soldiers participating in large-scale exercises at CFB Wainwright say Canadian Armed Forces members who have tested positive for COVID-19 are isolating in small, unheated tents with limited ability to wash themselves.

Up to 2,500 soldiers, mostly from Edmonton, are participating in Maple Resolve and Agile Ram in a training area at Canadian Forces Base Wainwright in eastern Alberta. The exercises are expected to wrap up in June.

Two soldiers who spoke to CBC in late April said members of their unit have tested positive for COVID-19 and are spending isolation in small tents.

They said some tents are unheated, and sick soldiers haven't been able to properly wash themselves.

They said they were concerned that the isolating soldiers were being checked on infrequently.

Meanwhile, during tree planting season (another team based, outdoor occupation) ;

How the pandemic helped B.C. tree planters have one of their 'healthiest years ever'​

Industry planted 300 million seedlings with zero cases of COVID-19

It might sound counterintuitive, but COVID-19 led B.C.'s tree planters to have one of their "healthiest years ever," according to an industry representative.

And despite a late start, planters are about to put the 300 millionth seedling of the season in the ground, setting a new annual record.

"It's been a good year," said John Betts of the Western Forestry Contractors' Association, which represents the majority of tree planting companies in the province.

It's a far cry from where the industry was in March, when, worried about the coronavirus, there was uncertainty over whether the province would even allow 5,000 workers to spread out across the province and into rural communities.

But Betts said health guidelines drawn up by industry and the province allowed the work to be done without putting anyone at risk of infection.

"A lot of credit needs to go to our workers," he said. "They understood the risks that they faced themselves and also wanted to keep the communities safe. And as a result of them taking this quite seriously, we managed to get through the season without anyone testing positive for COVID, which is in itself quite an accomplishment."

Planters limited to isolated work pods​

For decades, summers in remote planting camps have been defined by hard work and intense socializing.

But this year, planters were assigned to small groups or "work pods" and not allowed to socialize with people from other camps or pods.

They were also required to stay in their work camps, forbidden from visiting neighbouring communities on their days off or, in some cases, allowed to stay in motels or hotels where they were monitored to make sure they weren't interacting with the wider community.

"We went to great efforts to keep our crews separate from the communities," Betts said.

The result? Not only did no one get sick from COVID-19, but Betts said other illnesses that usually plague work camps, such as flus and gastrointestinal infections, were also absent. Workers also got more sleep leading to fewer illnesses.

"We probably had one of our healthiest years ever," Betts said.


 

OceanBonfire

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12 individuals are at the roots of vaccine disinformation, boosted by idiots, bots, and people who want to see the world burn:


Previously:

 
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