CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

[Humphrey Bogart]

@mariomike please don't move random posts from a discussion to another thread. I have no idea why you decided to Cherry pick a post of mine and move it?

 

[Remius]

The irony/head scratcher is the trust is coming left. And not the right.

No irony. Just depends who is in power.

People that distrust the federal LPC over COVID mandates etc yet voted for Doug Ford despite the Ford Government policies on COVID having a much bigger effect on people’s lives than anything the feds did.

Harper was ok going to the WEF when he did but now things have changed. Trust changes when governments change.

 

[shiska]

Interesting that there are two camps:

1. The respiratory virus, C19, caused increased cases of cardiac arrest; or
2. MRNA jabs caused increased cases of cardiac arrest.

Which one is catastrophic to governments, mandates, pharma companies?

I've actually had the chance to discuss this very question with a Professsor in our department of immunology. His explanation was that some people are vulnerable to the proteins in the virus which casues a thickening of the fluid between the heart and the bag of tissue it sits in. The result is that weather you got the mRNA shot or the actual disease the risk of heart problems is the same.

Assuming this is correct, then the net benefit of vaccination to the general population would still outweight the risks since the myocarditis issue balances itself out (aka, youre fucked either way)

Now I'm just an IT guy and certainly no statistician or doctor but I think that makes sense?

 

[mariomike]

@mariomike please don't move random posts from a discussion to another thread.

My reply was to a "public health" - non CAF - post ,

Public heath stats on mortality and excess mortality would disagree with you.

To continue with public health, rather than continue the derail of a CAF thread, I replied in a public health non-CAF thread.

I condidered that preferable to reading someone gripe about public health not being " CAF related - off-topic".

Sometimes trying to do the right thing in a chat room gets you darned if you do, darned if you don't.

I have no idea why you decided to Cherry pick a post of mine and move it?

Which post of yours are you referring to?

Interesting that there are two camps:

1. The respiratory virus, C19, caused increased cases of cardiac arrest; or
2. MRNA jabs caused increased cases of cardiac arrest.

I was looking at out-of-hospital cardiac arrests from the perspective of paramedics "at the coal face:", so to speak.

As out-of-hospital DOAs are not transported by paramedics, they would have no way of knowing if it was Camp 1 or 2.

Or, if the DOA had even been vaccinated.

The only real sure thing they knew was they were being sent to more cardiac arrests than usual.

"In just one shift in early April, the veteran New York City paramedic had to tell a dozen families that a loved one had died from suspected coronavirus. But in the days that followed, this became his grim routine.

At the height of the health crisis in New York, he says he was responding to between nine and 13 coronavirus-related cardiac arrests a day, on top of “normal” call-outs."

Coronavirus: Coming to terms with months on the front line

As restrictions in New York are eased, a paramedic reflects on the pandemic and its impact on his life.

www.bbc.com

According to the Fire Department of the City of New York - EMS Division, in 2020, out-of-hospital cardiac arrests in NYC were an almost 10x increase from 2019.

Camp 1 or Camp 2?

 

[QV]

I've actually had the chance to discuss this very question with a Professsor in our department of immunology. His explanation was that some people are vulnerable to the proteins in the virus which casues a thickening of the fluid between the heart and the bag of tissue it sits in. The result is that weather you got the mRNA shot or the actual disease the risk of heart problems is the same.

Assuming this is correct, then the net benefit of vaccination to the general population would still outweight the risks since the myocarditis issue balances itself out (aka, youre fucked either way)

Now I'm just an IT guy and certainly no statistician or doctor but I think that makes sense?

That is an interesting point. My question would be this: So if you are susceptible to myocarditis and the proteins in the virus cause thickening of the fluid but so does the vaccine, would you be more or less at risk by introducing more of the same that is causing you the problem?

For those susceptible to myocarditis it probably looks like this:
C19 = not good for your outcome
mRNA + C19 = very bad
mRNAx2 + C19 = worse still
mRNAx3 + C19 = worser, how are you still alive?

This is why Individual decision making must still be allowed when it comes to vaccines and any other medical treatment. Forcing vaccines on the entire population is sentencing some people to death. Freedom of choice is paramount.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

No one 'forced' you......

Its so funny how not once was I ever told I wouldn't get covid with the vaccine, nor was I ever tackled, tied down and injected.
Guess it was different for some people,......hope you recover from the trauma.

 

[QV]

No one 'forced' you......

Its so funny how not once was I ever told I wouldn't get covid with the vaccine, nor was I ever tackled, tied down and injected.
Guess it was different for some people,......hope you recover from the trauma.

You have a short memory. The government and employer forced me and every other CAF/public servant who were told they'd lose their livelihood, wouldn't be able to move about society, and couldn't draw EI benefits. Therefore people wouldn't be able to provide for their families if they didn't get the vaccine. That is duress, it's not voluntary and certainly not informed consent. It's also now long established that early claims the vaccine would prevent transmission are now known to be wrong and the government has been minimizing the rate of injuries caused by the vaccine.

You can argue about the validity of that vaccine mandate effort in a modern, 'free' democratic country, but you cannot deny what happened. The facts don't support your statement above.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I want to be an Uber driver but I don't have a drivers license........when will the tyranny stop????

 

[Halifax Tar]

No one 'forced' you......

Its so funny how not once was I ever told I wouldn't get covid with the vaccine, nor was I ever tackled, tied down and injected.
Guess it was different for some people,......hope you recover from the trauma.

Forced is a funny word. I wasn't forced into a line up and injected, but I was told to take the jab or lose my career and ability to support my young family.

 

[Remius]

People are free to do as they want within the limits of societal norms and rules. They are not however free of consequences for exercising their own brand of freedom.

 

[mariomike]

They are not however free of consequences for exercising their own brand of freedom.

An example of which is the unvaccinated employee being required to wear full PPE at work.

While the vaccinated partner enjoys the "freedom" not to be required to do so.

 

[Weinie]

People are free to do as they want within the limits of societal norms and rules. They are not however free of consequences for exercising their own brand of freedom.

I'm not sure that Covid ever became a "norm"

From the literature

Three stages have been identified in the life cycle of a norm: (1) Norm emergence – norm entrepreneurs seek to persuade others of the desirability and appropriateness of certain behaviors; (2) Norm cascade – when a norm obtains broad acceptance; and (3) Norm internalization – when a norm acquires a "taken-for-granted" quality.

I don't know if it ever got to step 2 (norm cascade) signifying broad acceptance. There was a coercive quality to the norm entrepreneurs "persuasion"

 

[Halifax Tar]

People are free to do as they want within the limits of societal norms and rules. They are not however free of consequences for exercising their own brand of freedom.

I think in general you are right.

I am not sure I would put the vaccines and our policies and actions on WRT getting them or not in the same sphere though.

Just look how its been walked back.

Military eases vaccine mandate, presses ahead with discipline for unvaccinated troops

The Canadian Armed Forces will press ahead with the forced expulsion of dozens of unvaccinated troops despite a new order from defence chief Gen. Wayne Eyre on Friday ending the military's blanket COVID-19 vaccine requirement.

www.ctvnews.ca

Canadian military presses ahead with discipline for unvaccinated troops despite easing mandate

Military personnel are expected to follow orders and their refusal to get vaccinated raises questions about their suitability to serve, Defence chief says

nationalpost.com

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'm not sure that Covid ever became a "norm"

From the literature

Three stages have been identified in the life cycle of a norm: (1) Norm emergence – norm entrepreneurs seek to persuade others of the desirability and appropriateness of certain behaviors; (2) Norm cascade – when a norm obtains broad acceptance; and (3) Norm internalization – when a norm acquires a "taken-for-granted" quality.

I don't know if it ever got to step 2 (norm cascade) signifying broad acceptance. There was a coercive quality to the norm entrepreneurs "persuasion"

Agreed.

There is a difference between persuasion from understanding and mutual agreement and do this or else.

 

[Remius]

I think in general you are right.

I am not sure I would put the vaccines and our policies and actions on WRT getting them or not in the same sphere though.

Just look how its been walked back.

Military eases vaccine mandate, presses ahead with discipline for unvaccinated troops

The Canadian Armed Forces will press ahead with the forced expulsion of dozens of unvaccinated troops despite a new order from defence chief Gen. Wayne Eyre on Friday ending the military's blanket COVID-19 vaccine requirement.

www.ctvnews.ca

Canadian military presses ahead with discipline for unvaccinated troops despite easing mandate

Military personnel are expected to follow orders and their refusal to get vaccinated raises questions about their suitability to serve, Defence chief says

nationalpost.com

And yet the courts have sided with employers every time in terms of conditions of employment being set.

In your line of work you get subjected to a variety of conditions and rules to follow. If you don’t then the employer can end the relationship. In fact the employer can end your employee/employer relationship at any time for any reason.

But at no time has anyone been “forced” to do anything. People have been given the conditions they need to abide by, the choice to accept or not was never taken away. That choice always existed.

 

[TacticalTea]

And yet the courts have sided with employers every time in terms of conditions of employment being set.

In your line of work you get subjected to a variety of conditions and rules to follow. If you don’t then the employer can end the relationship. In fact the employer can end your employee/employer relationship at any time for any reason.

But at no time has anyone been “forced” to do anything. People have been given the conditions they need to abide by, the choice to accept or not was never taken away. That choice always existed.

By that logic, the word "forced" is entirely meaningless.

You don't have to surrender to the police after committing a crime! You can just fight them and face the consequences!
You don't have to pay taxes! Just run to Iran or somewhere! They don't cooperate with your government.

You always have a choice.

But when the consequences of a choice are dire, and voluntarily imposed by an authority that really wants you to make an other choice, you are effectively forced into that other choice.

Such is the case when you depend on your job to pay your mortgage, feed your family and fuel your car, but your employer, backed by the state's mandates, suddenly wants you to take an experimental vaccine or face termination.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I don't think history will judge well the folks who use the words 'forced' when compared to humanities centuries past 'forced'.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And yet the courts have sided with employers every time in terms of conditions of employment being set.

In your line of work you get subjected to a variety of conditions and rules to follow. If you don’t then the employer can end the relationship. In fact the employer can end your employee/employer relationship at any time for any reason.

But at no time has anyone been “forced” to do anything. People have been given the conditions they need to abide by, the choice to accept or not was never taken away. That choice always existed.

I do believe I said I wasn't forced.

I also think knowing what we know now, the mandates and policies would have been very different.

 

[Remius]

I do believe I said I wasn't forced.

I also think knowing what we know now, the mandates and policies would have been very different.

I know you didn’t. Someone else did. I added it to the overall context of the discussion .

 

[Halifax Tar]

I know you didn’t. Someone else did. I added it to the overall context of the discussion .

When do conditions of continued employment become such that they have moved into something other than reasonable and voluntary?

As for the courts... This is the same organization that releases violent offenders over and over. The courts are as fallible and politically motivated as any other organizations. While I may be bound to follow their findings I don't put much weight in what the say. I'm just trying to keep a roof over the head of my daughter.

Had the vaccines been actually optional, much like the flu shot I never would have gotten them.