Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Navy_Pete]

That works for the RN because they have a much much bigger, stable and experienced technical support arm. My direct equivalent in the RN is split into 3 separate organizations with about 20 ish people doing the same scope of work as 2 of us. They are further supported by other teams and have additional capabilities beyond that, but that's why they can manage and support a lot of different classes and configurations better than we can. Their logistics side seems to similarly scale so they can do things like refill bins and proactively manage obsolete parts, components and systems.

 

[Kirkhill]

That seems to speak to command decisions as much as anything else. It seems reminiscent of many small companies I have worked with. The problems the small guys face is that they have to do all the same jobs as the big guys. That means they need all the same expertise and the same levels of support as the big guys even though they are only operating one small factory in a county in Montana rather than an international network of factories around the globe.

They are short of revenue because they are short of factories but the need to support management, accounting, QA, engineering, parts, material, ingredients. They use all the same stuff from all the same suppliers but in much smaller quantities and actually makes things harder as the suppliers maintain their chains for the mass quantities consumed by the big guys.

Having said that, that is the cost of doing business. You are either in the game or out.

 

[Underway]

That works for the RN because they have a much much bigger, stable and experienced technical support arm. My direct equivalent in the RN is split into 3 separate organizations with about 20 ish people doing the same scope of work as 2 of us. They are further supported by other teams and have additional capabilities beyond that, but that's why they can manage and support a lot of different classes and configurations better than we can. Their logistics side seems to similarly scale so they can do things like refill bins and proactively manage obsolete parts, components and systems.

It makes sense to a certain extent.
Royal Navy:
31,906 active personnel (January 2024) 3,309 maritime reserve (January 2024)
Approx 483 Reg Force per hull (~66 hulls)

Royal Canadian Navy:
8,400 Regular Force personnel, 4,100 Reservists
Approx 262 Reg Force per hull (~36 hulls)

Now that's not apples to apples representation, the Royal Navy includes all the purple trades that we don't carry in the RCN directly (supply, med, admin, legal) and it also includes the naval air arm. But it does give some idea, with double the number of hulls that we have they have almost 4 times the people.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It makes sense to a certain extent.
Royal Navy:
31,906 active personnel (January 2024) 3,309 maritime reserve (January 2024)
Approx 483 Reg Force per hull (~66 hulls)

Royal Canadian Navy:
8,400 Regular Force personnel, 4,100 Reservists
Approx 262 Reg Force per hull (~36 hulls)

Now that's not apples to apples representation, the Royal Navy includes all the purple trades that we don't carry in the RCN directly (supply, med, admin, legal) and it also includes the naval air arm. But it does give some idea, with double the number of hulls that we have they have almost 4 times the people.

I'm not sure if you can find a break down of that difference but I would suspect most of it would be our purple folks. It takes multiple people to put and sustain 1 person to sea.

I am willing to be wrong though.

 

[Grimey]

It makes sense to a certain extent.
Royal Navy:
31,906 active personnel (January 2024) 3,309 maritime reserve (January 2024)
Approx 483 Reg Force per hull (~66 hulls)

Royal Canadian Navy:
8,400 Regular Force personnel, 4,100 Reservists
Approx 262 Reg Force per hull (~36 hulls)

Now that's not apples to apples representation, the Royal Navy includes all the purple trades that we don't carry in the RCN directly (supply, med, admin, legal) and it also includes the naval air arm. But it does give some idea, with double the number of hulls that we have they have almost 4 times the people.

That 32k includes RM also, around 7k.

 

[Underway]

That 32k includes RM also, around 7k.

Damn, I thought I got a number that didn't include RM. Either way it is a ballpark to illustrate the differences.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Only to the Brits.

This is a significantly under appreciated reply right here ...

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I'll throw you a bone, Underway.

If you want to compare the two for manpower (RN v. RCN), you have to compare sea going warships: Their SSBN, SSN, CV, Amphibious Assault ships, DD, FF, River class PB, minehunters and survey ships and arctic patrol ship to our fleet of FFH, SSK, AOPS and MCDV. In those terms, they operate 47 vessels to our 33. Even accounting for purple trades, they still have better manning and better sea/shore ratio, even though they are crying that they are short.

Where the other commissioned vessels come in their fleet is in the 18 Archer and Cutlass class patrol boats used for Gibraltar defense and to train the RNR. They need 5 Regular force personnel each. With their number of personnel, this is insignificant.

 

[Cloud Cover]

UK build programme

Royal Navy’s Multi Role Support Ship programme to go ahead | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

8x T26 (CSC mod)
5x T31 (Iver Huitfeldt mod)

3x FSS (Fleet Solid Support Ship - RFA )

Fleet Solid Support - Defence Equipment & Support

Fleet Solid Support Ships will be the Royal Fleet Auxiliary’s modern solid stores replenishment ships, an essential supporting element to the delivery of the Maritime Carrier Strike Group.

des.mod.uk

6x MRSS (Absalon or Rotterdam?)

4x SSBN
2x SSN.

28 hulls - multiple design criteria, logistics nightmare, but.....flexible response.

Don't forget that by the time the last Astute class is commissioned, the first of the Aukus class will (theoretically) be cutting steel (less than 9 years from now) and probably T83 FADS will be on the slips if it is to be a modified T26.

 

[Grimey]

Don't forget that by the time the last Astute class is commissioned, the first of the Aukus class will (theoretically) be cutting steel (less than 9 years from now) and probably T83 FADS will be on the slips if it is to be a modified T26.

Cutting steel…maybe. But there’s the 4 Dreadnougnt class SSBN’s first. I know the big assembly hall in Barrow has been enlarged recently, but I can’t see Dreadnought and AUKUS SSN’s being built simultaneously.

 

[Kirkhill]

Re Trafalgar....

No Trafalgar, no West Africa Squadron.

 

[KevinB]

Cutting steel…maybe. But there’s the 4 Dreadnougnt class SSBN’s first. I know the big assembly hall in Barrow has been enlarged recently, but I can’t see Dreadnought and AUKUS SSN’s being built simultaneously.

We are building two Virginia a year at current, and could do more. The USN only wanted 1 and the HASC mandated two.

I don’t see the 4 Dreadnought’s taking 9 years to complete, as from my understanding 3 are currently being built (in some sort of production cycle). Given the majority of systems are similar to the Columbia class, and both those classes are expected to have first boat IOC in 6-7 years.

So one would assume the facility would be clear of at least 2 most likely 3 hulls by the 2031 date for AUKUS construction the would leave the final boat being finished in the yard and room for 2 AUKUS modules to start being assembled.

 

[suffolkowner]

We are building two Virginia a year at current, and could do more. The USN only wanted 1 and the HASC mandated two.

I don’t see the 4 Dreadnought’s taking 9 years to complete, as from my understanding 3 are currently being built (in some sort of production cycle). Given the majority of systems are similar to the Columbia class, and both those classes are expected to have first boat IOC in 6-7 years.

So one would assume the facility would be clear of at least 2 most likely 3 hulls by the 2031 date for AUKUS construction the would leave the final boat being finished in the yard and room for 2 AUKUS modules to start being assembled.

Submarine manufacturing seems a little uneven. The US 5 in the last 3 yrs

but the UK was over 5 yrs per boat on the Vanguards and averaging over 8 on the Astutes while
France was 7 yrs on the Triomphant and over 12.5 on the Barracuda/Suffrens

The first Dreadnought is on year 8 right now so if anything it looks like the construction time is increasing(?)

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

At the end of the Reagan era "600 ships" Navy policy (made redundant by the fall of the wall), Electric Boats was launching one boat every 3 1/2 months: more than three a year but not quite four. That was pretty well max production, which is why, when Mulroney's government looked at SSN's, the US said "pass for now, but feel free to talk to the Brits".

Right now, there is room at Electric Boats and since the AUKUS submarine plans is for the UK to build the AUK ones and the US build its own, the US could probably ramp up some production and include boats for Canada at a reasonable rate and at a reasonably early stage. Considering Canada also has the advantage of easy access to US nuclear submarine maintenance facilities (within one or two days sailing) and could make a deal over maintenance with the primary experts, it could be a much more affordable option for Canada (well within 2% GDP including all other Defense needs) to acquire 6 to 8 such SSNs within the next 12 years than it is for Australia and the UK, which have to come up with supporting infrastructure we wouldn't need.

 

[KevinB]

Submarine manufacturing seems a little uneven. The US 5 in the last 3 yrs

but the UK was over 5 yrs per boat on the Vanguards and averaging over 8 on the Astutes while
France was 7 yrs on the Triomphant and over 12.5 on the Barracuda/Suffrens

The first Dreadnought is on year 8 right now so if anything it looks like the construction time is increasing(?)

Keep in mind first in class is always a long time. The Columbia class maiden ship is expected to be 11 years from start to duty date.

@Oldgateboatdriver ElectricBoat claims it can do 4 Virginias / year if given the okay and ramp up - problem is the USN doesn’t want that, and didn’t even want a second this year or next.

 

[Underway]

I'll throw you a bone, Underway.

If you want to compare the two for manpower (RN v. RCN), you have to compare sea going warships: Their SSBN, SSN, CV, Amphibious Assault ships, DD, FF, River class PB, minehunters and survey ships and arctic patrol ship to our fleet of FFH, SSK, AOPS and MCDV. In those terms, they operate 47 vessels to our 33. Even accounting for purple trades, they still have better manning and better sea/shore ratio, even though they are crying that they are short.

Where the other commissioned vessels come in their fleet is in the 18 Archer and Cutlass class patrol boats used for Gibraltar defense and to train the RNR. They need 5 Regular force personnel each. With their number of personnel, this is insignificant.

Cheers, I wasn't about to due a full analysis of major vs training vs tugs etc... Appreciate the assist here! There is also the crewing numbers for their ships, as things like the carriers require much more crew (which is where I decided my time was better spent fixing my front steps and less doing crew/staff analysis of a foreign navy... lol).

 

[suffolkowner]

Keep in mind first in class is always a long time. The Columbia class maiden ship is expected to be 11 years from start to duty date.

@Oldgateboatdriver ElectricBoat claims it can do 4 Virginias / year if given the okay and ramp up - problem is the USN doesn’t want that, and didn’t even want a second this year or next.

Can the US build more?
There's what about 50 SSN in the US Navy?
But a stated requirement for 66?
With 37% down for maintenance (which doesnt seem that bad to me really)
Why would the USN only try an order 1? I dont think its a want issue but a budget/personnel one?

 

[KevinB]

Can the US build more?
There's what about 50 SSN in the US Navy?
But a stated requirement for 66?
With 37% down for maintenance (which doesnt seem that bad to me really)
Why would the USN only try an order 1? I dont think it’s a want issue but a budget/personnel one?

Honestly not sure. I don’t think it’s budget (seeing as the HASC allocated a second one). I tend to doubt personnel issues given the sub surface fleet is able to be very selective about personnel still.

I suspect it more into wanting to see what can be done with uncrewed systems - and shiny kit syndrome at higher levels of the Navy.

 

[suffolkowner]

Honestly not sure. I don’t think it’s budget (seeing as the HASC allocated a second one). I tend to doubt personnel issues given the sub surface fleet is able to be very selective about personnel still.

I suspect it more into wanting to see what can be done with uncrewed systems - and shiny kit syndrome at higher levels of the Navy.

Could be shipbuilding manpower as much as anything?

 

[calculus]

Another customer for SPY-7:

Taiwan Navy relaunches frigate project to feature Lockheed Martin AN/S

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