Canadian Submarine Capabilites (What can they do? Do we need them?)

[Alex]

I'm just a civiilian but I've got some questions about Canada's submarine capability. I understand Canada has 4 Victoria Class subs recently acquired from the British. From what I read in the news, these subs apparently weren't that great of a purchase, and I think I heard that there is still 1 or 2 in Britain and none of them are currently operating in the Navy. Is this true? Even if these subs were in good working condition and were all operable, would they meet Canada's submarine needs? And would these subs be deployable as frequently as the other ships in our fleet?

In an ideal military, how big would our sub force be and what capabilites would these subs have? Sorry if these questions seem ignorant but like I said i'm just a civilian and I'm curious. Thanks 

 

[loyalcana]

I believe that the one is operational, the HMCS Windsor.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

1 is still over in the UK and should be coming over in either the fall or winter. 2 are going through Canadianization (getting our sensors and being modified to fire the MK48 torpedoes) and 1 is on the West Coast getting another refit. The problem with them is they sat docked for so long with little or no maintenance. Try to get a car in working order that sat in your back yard for 10 yrs and you get the idea.
As for the rest of your questions I think we need clear guidance before we really know what we need before we can act upon it for numbers.

 

[Spr.Earl]

A bit of trivia.
The old boat's and crews used to do quite a bit of damage on Ex.'s against the NATO Fleet's in the N.Atlantic!!
We have good men but not the boat's !!

 

[Inch]

I think the Windsor is in service, we were out pinging it while they were doing workups, I'm pretty sure I read in the Maple Leaf that they were ready to deploy with NATO. I was also under the impression that the Victoria was ready to go on the west coast, but since I'm not on that side of the country I can't say for sure.

 

[brihard]

The Victoria class subs are VERY capable platforms. They're among the most modern diesel subs in the world. the thing is that within a year of them being commissioned by the british, their entire navy went nuke.

Diesel subs are very quiet. Their range is shorter than that of a nuke, but then again any tie we had to use our subs in war, we'd be working with other nations. Ours could stay coastal, while the American 688s and the British nucs went farther out to sea. Keep in mind that the Canadian capabilities in war would be only a part of a more complete whole. Our subs are more suited to staying quietly defencive in a relatively small area of operations, and at that they excel. The weapons, the Mk. 48 Torpedoes, are top of the line; the same weapons the yanks use on their subs.

Do we have the best subs out there? No, not by far. But do they suit our purpose? Yes, brilliantly. They certain roles they're designed for, namely sitting back and killing subs that enter their areas, and at that they excel.

 

[NavyGrunt]

I think the Windsor is in service, we were out pinging it while they were doing workups, I'm pretty sure I read in the Maple Leaf that they were ready to deploy with NATO. I was also under the impression that the Victoria was ready to go on the west coast, but since I'm not on that side of the country I can't say for sure.

I was at the windsors 'opening ceremonies' last fall. As for the Vic on the west. It looked lik it was still undergoing a refit when I saw her in May. Or was it?(is this opsec?)

 

[Sheerin]

You're sotra right about the torpedoes, we us the Mk 48s, while the US uses the Mk48 ADCAP (slightly newer and more advanced than ours) but same basic torpedo.  Yeah, its splitting hairs, but its like 45 ºC in here

 

[nULL]

This is a little off topic, but I thought I read somewhere that CSIS was prepared to pay a couple million for blueprints of the shkval torpedo. What happened to that idea?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Look at it this way...maybe the reason why you have not heard anything about is:
1) You're not in the need to know.
2) Nothing came of it.
3) Research is ongoing.
4) All the above.
5) One of the above.
6) None of the above.

OPSEC is key for questions like this.

 

[Sheerin]

I seem to recall reading in the Globe that that particular deal was kyboshed, but hey, who knows.  For all we know there is some super secret Naval Testing area somewhere in the middle of Hudson Bay... where unbeknownst to the rest of us we're building a super secret, top of the line SSN... and specs you ask?  We stole it from SeaQuest (you remember that show in the 90s?).

Oh god, am I ever a sarcastic sonofabitch when i'm tired.
Sorry, I think i'll go retreat to bed...

 

[canuck101]

Well the Royal Navy is going to be getting rid of some Trafalgar Class (SSN) Fleet Submarine soon to save money to reinvest in new tech and future equipment.  I know on there website they have plans to update four Trafalgar Class (SSN) Fleet Submarine so maybe we should do the same thing that got us the Victoria class subs.  Just a thougth call me crazy i know it will never happen since the Canadian public are afraid of a Capable military.  Then we would have to use it to back up our promises we make and not look like fools to everyone outside of Canada.

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

the cdn military does not have the infrastructure, nor the manpower to suppot ssn's.  secondly whoever remembers what happened when mulrooney decided that he was going to order ssns for canada in the 80s, all the ignorant left wing loonies cam out with their misinformation campaigns and created quite the fuss about how these subs would destroy the environment and lead canada into a new world war and that we nuke the world.  completely false and erroneous info, but effective nonetheless because they catering to the lowest common denominator.

 

[Kilted Mayhem]

OK, I don't know much about subs but it seams to me that diesel/electric is the way to go. With new technologies such as hydrogen fuel cell and improved batteries coming on line, diesel/electric power will soon have the range and the stealth.
The new German navy Sub 212A is very interesting.  http://www.ch2bc.org/index16.htm

One thing that concerns me is the decision by BC Ferries to purchase new ferries from overseas and the application to have the 25% import tariff waived. If the Federal government decides to waive the 25% tariff, it would mean that they agree with BC ferries that Canada can not build ships of any size in our shipyards. How would this affect the new JSS order? This could be a death nail into our shipyards. If we lose our capability to build large ships would it not be logical that our capability to maintain our fleet suffer as well?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The U212A is a very nice class and with AIP it will be even more formidable.

 

[Sheerin]

I still think AIP is a few years away, and besides, I don't think it will ever be an effective replacement for a Nuclear Reactor... As of now, I don't think AIP can match the 32+ knots that an SSN can do (of course I doubt they go full speed that often). 

I also seem to recall reading an article that said that if Canada got AIP, it would allow us to do patrols under the icecap, however they'd be limited to something like 5 knots at all time to be able to get out from under the ice),but yeah, it was a while ago when i read that (if I did read it).

 

[Kilted Mayhem]

Still Learning more about subs
Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) have been around in some form or another since WW2, it just hasn't been that effective. Modern fuel cell AIP systems are just now coming on line. No, they will never be an effective replacement for a Nuclear reactor. They are not meant to be. Fuel cell technology relies on a chemical process to produce energy which hardly produces any heat. There's a lot heat generated from nuclear power. I think that most important thing about sub warfare is stealth, if they can't find you , they can't destroy you. Underwater speed would not be a really big issue, 5 knots or 30 knots. With the new rocket torpedoes such as the Shkval, it won't matter how fast your sub can travel, it will still be easy prey if they find you.
Our subs can be retrofitted with new fuel cell AIP when the technology comes on line. Canada has already invested into this technology with companies like Ballard. I think that knowing Canada's luck, when we finally have all our subs operational it will be time to retro fit them with the new AIP.

 

[vauban]

As a first pots here on the Army forum, I think I should try my best to actually write something with some sort of content. (As if that will work. *goes back to reading Tom Clancy*)

The Upholders are very capable submarines.   In this book "Submarine" Tom Clancy went as far as to call them the best SSK's in the world.   Unfortunately, due to a mixture of Canadian cheapness and long neglect, they really aren't living up to those standards.

When Canada leased-to-buy the Upholders they decided upgrading to the ADCAP (advanced capability) version of the Mk48 torpedo would simply be too expensive.   So, upon receiving the subs they installed the weapon systems directly from the old O-Class boats.   It remains to be seen how this will affect their effectiveness (I doubt it will matter).

They had been in dry dock since 1993, when the British cut all SSK operations in favour of having a completely nuclear fleet.   Canada announced the purchase in 1998 (as part of an eight year lease-to-buy schedule).

Our submarines have unfairly been made fun of in the media almost since we took possession of the first on (HMCS Victoria) 2000.   While they've had a long, hard road, we're talking about very, very good submarines, with good crews and the ability to serve Canada very well.

(As for Canada obtaining SSN submarines from the British or the Americans, I can easily say forget it.   Canada doesn't have the money for it, and as has said before, doesn't have the infrastructure or manpower for such an undertaking.)

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The O Boats had an extensive refit just a few years ago before we went for the Upholders, the fire control system is top notch and I think will more then aptly serve as well in the Victorias. I would not scoff at the MK48 as its still one of most powerful torpedoes out there, we have the version just below the ADSCAP in capability.

 

[McG]

Can you explain SSK, SSN, and maybe any other submarine type identifier codes.