Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)

[little jim]

No units under CANSOFCOM have officially stood up yet, so no one will have the tan beret yet.

427 will get their's Thursday.

I might be inclined to argue that the Joint NBC Company and the guys at the hill have already stood up.

EVERYONE needs to calm down with respect to the beret colour - everyone in the comd will wear one.  So before you get all wrapped up in the triva lets just be thankful that there is now an organization where people can aspire to go even if they lack the necessary skill sets for the hill.

 

[George Wallace]

TOO BAD? This unit may get spec pay. And some fat lazy will get the same pay. I think all have to do the testing. The American and Brit pilots have to do the same test as the ground fellas if they fly DELTA/SAS. WHY CAN'T OURS.

What about those who are already collecting Spec Pay in other Trades and other Organizations?  Fact of Life.  You are getting wound  up over a triviality.

 

[Recce41]

What about those who are already collecting Spec Pay in other Trades and other Organizations?  Fact of Life.  You are getting wound  up over a triviality.

George
The pay maybe spec 2. Yes others get it, but for SARs,JTF. They've earned it. I have to pass a PT test, 10 months on course, and then keep the standard. If your not up to snuff, why have the test. It will just fill with crap.

 

[McG]

There is also going to be a CANSOF capbadge coming down the pipe soon.

Why?

I'd like to put my 2 cents in regarding the new Canadian Special Operations Regiment and the Conservatives proposed Airborne Battalion.  Some are questioning whether there is need for the two units in the Canadian Forces, in my opinion there is.  ... 

Concern has been voiced that a small military like Canada's will not be able to provide enough high quality volunteers for two such units and that they will cannibalize the rest of the CF of their best people.  While the Liberals have recently made some increases in military spending, this potential problem can be solved by investing much more in the defence budget, particularly in the area of recruiting.  ...   During WW2 it fielded the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion and contributed greatly to the US/Canadian Special Service Force.  

Recruiting into the CF will do very little if the authorized strenght of the CF is not large enough to sustain JTF 2, CSOR, and CAR.  Looking to WW II as an example is a distortion.  Today, the CF is significantly smaller than the Canadian military of WW II.

 

[M Feetham]

I've read quite a few posts regarding the SOG. There seem to be a lot of good points, and I am interested in everything being said. I am planning on applying for one of the ATR billets in the fall and am prepping now. What I am curious about is what kind of reaction are non combat arms applicants going to get. I'm not talking the office jobs. I mean actual out there doing the job. Maybe not a front line troop, cause not everyone is able to do the job, but something. If I can get Cat 1 super if not, I'll wait and see what happens. Any thoughts or advice from anyone?
Thanks :cheers

 

[Gouki]

A few people told me the deadline is tomorrow .. then no more applications? Too bad .. I wanted to apply but my running isn't up to par.

If this is the case, there should be more positions open in the future right?

 

[Armymedic]

Due the nature of where and with whom I work, I get to see allot of info about the CSOR and about the CANSOF command.

There doesn't seem to be allot of info disseminated out there to everyone. I am getting the feeling allot of pers in the chain of command do not know or do not wish to acknowledge the info out there and are not passing it down their chains.

The big bee in my bonnet is that we are not necessarily sending the best people to the new unit, just the best that are avail...or the ones the CO would let leave (hmm sounds a little like a unit in Petawawa in the early 90's). There are outstanding medics who work for/with me who are unable to have their applications processed because we are manning TF in Aug and the unit is unable to backfill any pers lost to CSOR.

One of the misconceptions is that anyone can apply for any job, sort of like anyone in the CF applying to become a JTF2 Assaulter...from what I understand this is not correct. The direct action companies (the rifle companies of CSOR) have x number of posns for x trades and ranks, and also looking for pers with specific qualifications (ie any Cbt Arms WO Master Gunner, or Any trade WO/Sgt to fill Ops NCO). I will speak to med pers cause thats what I know intimately. This is all the medics they want for now until Sept:
1 PA MWO/WO
1 Sgt
3 Mcpl/Cpl
thats all thats it. If a med tech cpl applies for a posn, he is applying for those 3, and no others. They are not a rifleman, nor an engineer in the direct action company. And they are Cat 1 not support. They do the MOC they are trained to do. And hence the compition. If you are cbt arms, you better do real well on the pt test.

The other bee in my bonnet is the talk of the tan berets. Particularly for those who are just getting them because they are plugs in the right hole. Must be nice to get something so prestigious without earning it. If all it takes to be in this command is to be posted to the right place....

 

[medicineman]

But you're not bitter or twisted are you Ash ;D??!!

MM

 

[Armymedic]

But you're not bitter or twisted are you Ash ;D??!!

Only that 2 Fd Amb will not process my application due to the up coming TF, which I might add, I am only an alternate for.   :crybaby:

But hey, its not all bad...I got in 3 jumps today.

edit: as of end of play today 27 Jan, no change.....oh well.

 

[medicineman]

See - there is a bright side to everything.  I'm still trying to find the one that came from the career mangler's visit last week.  It was decidedly a waste of my time and taxpayer's money.

MM

 

[Armymedic]

See - there is a bright side to everything.  I'm still trying to find the one that came from the career mangler's visit last week.  It was decidedly a waste of my time and taxpayer's money.

MM

Career manager... :rage:
BTW there is a immediate posting available to Petawawa for a physically fit Sgt.

I just skimmed through the last few pages. So, non-031s willl not have to do any courses to earn the tan beret?

So, to get into the unit, you'd first have to do an Indoc type thing(2 days of testing) if you pass that you can get in. An you get to wear the tan beret. Do the troops that do the CSOR course get any special insignia to show that they've completed the course?

Right now its only a pt test for those into the CSOR.
There will be some specialized training testing program intiated in Sept. The troops coming in as of Apr, CSOR HQ, Admin Coy and NEO Coy, are in place before the "course" starts, but may do it.

 

[medicineman]

I can't see me jumping - one of my ankles is, shall we say, euchered.  Thanks for the thought though.

MM

 

[Popurhedoff]

Well I coudl concede the hat to the pliots and flight crew too -- but not the ground crew.  The Pilot and crew will be part of the mission team -- undertakign SOF missions with a correspondingly greater threat and personal danger level -- I fail to see how a clerk or tech's job changes with this assignment

Now who do you suppose goes into the field to recover and maintain the tactical aviation assets in the theaters of operations? Who's job is it to maintain, operate, recover, reapair in a hostile environment?   We are all a part of a team with specific job descriptions... A team is the sum of it parts...  I know I can rebuild helo's, I can operate in the field, operate in a hostile environment, and I can even pick up a rifle and do my part there... I have my job... its not like I'm asking you to rebuild the helos yourself... I (we) are the ones responsible for those (10000+)flinging, twirling parts to work properly to safely allow others to carry out their missions/tasks...  I am proud of my job.

George
The pay maybe spec 2. Yes others get it, but for SARs,JTF. They've earned it. I have to pass a PT test, 10 months on course, and then keep the standard. If your not up to snuff, why have the test. It will just fill with crap.

Most of us do agree with you as well Recce41, but it seems that you and others are under the impression that Zoomies are all fat and lazy...  I would have to disagree with you on that... not all. The demographics of Airforce technicians are that approx 75% of the technical tradesman/women have over 20 years of service and at least 40+ years old... these are highly specialized trained technicians, training that can take up to 10 years to fully qualify...there are very few younger techs around...that being said... you have to use who you have, what ya got...that is the state we are in...

that being said, we all still have to pass the same PT tests as the rest...  I have 27 years in, and I run 3 days a week with my rucksack... I do this year round, I make no excuses...and have attained almost 1000kms for the year with my ruck... out of the 3000+ personnel who ran the Brigade Terry Fox run... only two(2),I say again only two (2) ran with rucksacks... and they were AirForce...myself and another over 40 zoomie.  That followed by the Brigade Tug-O-war match... we had 7 guys over 40 years of age, not a single practice... and we lasted 19 seconds longer that the RCD's against the Brigade Champions,  427 Sqn finished 2nd in the Womens Terry Fox run, 427 THS Ironman team finished very high with out team IIRC finishing  with no one out of the top 80.  2nd place in the seniors devision, top Female... not bad at all for a bunch of Old Zoomies.

We do not begrudge doing our part, or staying in shape...albeit "Pear" is a shape.  Sometimes  people do not have a complete picture and tend to make assumptions. Please keep in mind that we are all on the same team, we all have our specific jobs to do. 

P.S.  If any wish to participate,  I usually start my ruck run @0600 at the gate of our unit. (Mon, Wed, & Fri)... Yes I do my PT on my own time... I am too busy working to do it on work time.

Cheers

 

[Blakey]

EDIT: I did not want to start an agument when I first raised these questions, and this reply is in no way a "flame" or intended to start a pissing contest.

Well, let me add more detail then...

1) Up until recently, we have had a capability closer to the FBI HRT Special Operation Aviation Unit...both using the CH135 and the CH146...in fact...the CH146 is close to being 100% similar aircraft type used by the FBI, let alone the very similar Dom CT role supported,


Which brings me to why I had asked my first question, which was "I wasn't aware that we had a Canadian equivalent to the, AH/MH-6 Little Bird,  MH-60 Pave Hawk, and  MH-47E Chinook. When did this come about?". As I had thought that you had picked up the torch from "short final" (or spidy as it now seems the persons user name is), I was under the impression that you were in fact in agreement with that persons post. So then, the capability stands more towards the FBI HRT then? That is, (IMO) considerably less than the 160th.

2) when I said MH-60-ish (note the -ish), my intention was to indicate where our SOA capability roughly sat.  The MH-60 Pavehawk is considered a mission-specific variant of the US Army UTTH (utility tactical transport helicopter) which, interestingly, happens to be exactly what the CH146 Griffon is to the CF, the CFUTTH.  I neither said explicitly nor implied that the CH135 or the CH146 had the "same capability" as the MH-60, and


Roger, so I will take the first part of Resp #2 as being that there really isn't much of a SOA capability within the military at the present time but, it is starting to come to the forefront, and people are starting to give it the attention it deserves?
As for the bold-ed part, I was again under the impression that since you had taken the question meant for shor...or whoever, that you were in agreement that we had had that capability since the early 90's. My mistake.

3) By "flown along side", I meant that I have trained with the unit and have a good understanding of its operators, capabilities and procedures -- understanding where similarities exist, how we can best ensure interoperability or coordination of operations, or at the very least, learn from their experiences to apply to our own operations.  Nowhere did I say that we either: a) "trained" the 160th SOAR(A) [as in them learning from us], or b) "have the same capabilities" as the entire 160th SOAR(A), both of which you most recent post seems to imply I said.


a) I wasn't aware that I had implied that you "had" trained them, my apologies if you thought that I had suggested it.
b) Ive answered this one in the other two above replies.

Any other stuff that I should pick out of the pepper?

Not at all sir, thank you for the stimulating dialogue, I've gained a wealth of knowledge.

 

[Good2Golf]

Blakey, I just picked up on one thing you mentioned about response #2 that I was not looking at perhaps the same way you were. 

Yes, it would be most correct to say we've had a Teir 1 (which is what the FBI HRT is as well) capability focused primarily on Dom CT, with only a marginal focus on other activities.  That will no doubt change in the future as 427 SOAS provides support to all CANSOFCOM elements -- especially looking forward to seeing other areas further developed.  This will likely be especially true supporting the CSOR, where we did not support such a capability before (unless you include guys at 427 with Hueys and me and others at 450 and Chinooks supporting the SSF...swallowed a few Zodiacs into the back of 'hooks in my earlier days).

Cheers,
Duey

 

[The_Falcon]

How do other SF units work around the whole designation thing?  Do the clerks that work for the SAS or JTF have a special decoder ring?  I'd have to lean more towards Kev's line of thinking.

I just finished Dick Couch's "The Finishing School: Earning the Navy SEAL Trident", and he mentioned that every SEAL Team has non-SEALs (ie, clerks, sup techs) posted to them.  He didn't detail what if any selection requirements they go through (the book was about becoming SEALs not a support person in a SEAL team).  But the easiest way to tell the operators from the support staff, All the operators are SEALs and have the Trident.  Non-operators have no trident. 

If it is such an issue to people (how do we tell apart the operators and the techies), why don't we just go back to wearing qualification badges on our combats?

 

[043]

I have been following this thread and have been reading what people have been thinking/saying. It's all good but I have to question some of the people who are on here beaking off................if you want to be part of it, go for it. Don't begin piss moaning about who should be able to wear what, etc............if you are worried about that, you probably won't pass the selection phase anyways.

Chimo!!!!

 

[MikeL]

If it is such an issue to people (how do we tell apart the operators and the techies), why don't we just go back to wearing qualification badges on our combats?

Or just look at the persons capbadge.

 

[Kev T]

Yes, it would be most correct to say we've had a Teir 1 (which is what the FBI HRT is as well) capability focused primarily on Dom CT, with only a marginal focus on other activities.  That will no doubt change in the future as 427 SOAS provides support to all CANSOFCOM elements -- especially looking forward to seeing other areas further developed.  This will likely be especially true supporting the CSOR, where we did not support such a capability before (unless you include guys at 427 with Hueys and me and others at 450 and Chinooks supporting the SSF...swallowed a few Zodiacs into the back of 'hooks in my earlier days).

Cheers,
Duey

Are you saying that a Tier 1 unit is just a hostage rescue outfit that isn't really tasked with green ops? I was under the impression that a Tier 1 unit was capable of pretty much all special forces missions but also had a CT mandate e.g. the 22nd SAS Regiment is a special forces unit that is tasked with CT and hostage rescue but is also capable of many many other operations in the green area (which it is mainly tasked with). If what I think you're saying is true does this make any city police SWAT team a tier 1 unit? Thanks.

 

[Recce41]

Tier 1 is national, exclusive. ie JTF.
Tier 2 is national -.
JTF is not just Blk, they are green. But now will be more blk (22 SAS, 1 SAS, Delta) than green (3, 5 SAS, Rangers, GBs) The SEALs are also a mixed bag .