Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training

[Eye In The Sky]

Also not included (unless I missed it) were how many were Pte's, NCOs, Warrant Officers and/or Officers.

I've been on winter ex's where it was intended as Winter Indoc and someone higher up got all full of piss and vinegar and wanted it to be "winter warfare".  The SSM had to talk some sense into the grown-ups and explain the difference and get people to have a drink of reality-flavoured KoolAid.

But agree, something (or things, more than likely) feel thru the cracks here.  -31 isn't that cold with the kit we had decades ago and the stuff issued now is better (if you know how to use it...which you usually learned during winter indoc...).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Also not included (unless I missed it) were how many were Pte's, NCOs, Warrant Officers and/or Officers.

I've been on winter ex's where it was intended as Winter Indoc and someone higher up got all full of piss and vinegar and wanted it to be "winter warfare".  The SSM had to talk some sense into the grown-ups and explain the difference and get people to have a drink of reality-flavoured KoolAid.

But agree, something (or things, more than likely) feel thru the cracks here.  -31 isn't that cold with the kit we had decades ago and the stuff issued now is better (if you know how to use it...which you usually learned during winter indoc...).

Point to note: If you run (especially inexperienced and non-acclimatized) troops too fast at 30 below, you can damage their lungs quite easily as well... Not saying that happened in this case, but it's yet another consideration not many think of.

 

[Walt]

There is no reason, given the cold weather gear that the CF provides, that under a controlled winter indoctrination exercise, soldiers would experience frostbite. Proper education should have prevented this unnecessary occurrence:

1. Wear loose layered clothing, and the kit provided,
2. Remove layers as required to allow evaporation of body perspiration,
3. Ensure that extremities are covered and dry,
4. Stay hydrated, and fuel up on snacks between meals,
5. Take breaks to change damp socks and boot liners as required,
6. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM. Check your mates for the early onset of frostbite before it becomes serious (symptoms include blotchy waxy skin, mental clumsiness, uncontrolled shivering).

The coldest Winter Indoc I experienced was in -40 degrees in Spruce Wood Provincial Park on the outskirts of CFB Shilo. Six days and a lot of discomfort; however, not one casualty!

 

[Old Sweat]

I had been holding off, but the above reference to Shilo triggered a reaction. In December 1960 my OCP Phase One course culminated with an exercise in the norththeast end of the Shilo ranges. We had undergone an indoctrination in camp before deploying, and our instructors were experienced, tough and firm in their approach. We set up camp, moved, set up, etc, etc for about five days. We also constructed expedient shelters, aka lean tos and snow caves, in weather that bottomed out at -55f.

Many, the majority of us, had put on a uniform for the first time in September, so the experience level was low. Despite that, and the weather, we suffered no casualties and had no problem marching back to camp hauling our toboggans and tent group kit. I have a picture someone took of Officer Cadet Norm Rouleau (father of Mike) and me taking a break besides our toboggan and, while we obviously were tired, we were fit and able to continue. I credit this to our course staff who knew their business.

 

[Kirkhill]

Just a thought

How many Canadian kids still walk to school at -31C?

For most of us in my era, the early 80s, Winter Ex's were a continuation of life as usual in the sense that many of us had been walking a mile plus or more, two to four times a day (if you were lucky enough to walk home for lunch) and play outside before school, at two recesses, during lunch and after school.  Not to mention time on toboggan hills and outdoor rinks.  With 2 meter snow banks, 30 below, wind chill and snow glare

Most of us had figured out that some of the stuff mum had been telling us about dressing made some kind of sense.

Bit different if you get dragged away from your playstation, turfed out of your basement and chucked into a snow drift.

I'm reminded of the Ghanaian kids on Phase 2 at Gagetown in January - every stitch of clothing on, coddled in the cabs of the Deuces, and still suffering from hypothermia.

No frames of reference.

 

[meni0n]

From reading some of the comments on reddit, it would seem that they were all prepped for a bug out in their vehicles given they're an armoured regiment and this was an IRU bug out. The bde cmd gave them a last minute order to leave the vehicles and do the 12 km march. Probably in the haste of getting all the kit out of the vehicles and prepping the tobogans a few things were overlooked, forgotten etc, and this is how you end up with so many casualties.

 

[mariomike]

I'm reminded of the Ghanaian kids on Phase 2 at Gagetown in January - every stitch of clothing on, coddled in the cabs of the Deuces, and still suffering from hypothermia.

No frames of reference.

There was some discussion of a possible link between ethnicity and cold weather injuries,

African-born soldier sues army for cold weather injuries

Abdoulie Bojang says his ethnicity made him more vulnerable to being affected by the extreme weather
http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/african-born-soldier-sues-army-cold-weather-injuries

 

[Eye In The Sky]

From reading some of the comments on reddit, it would seem that they were all prepped for a bug out in their vehicles given they're an armoured regiment and this was an IRU bug out. The bde cmd gave them a last minute order to leave the vehicles and do the 12 km march. Probably in the haste of getting all the kit out of the vehicles and prepping the tobogans a few things were overlooked, forgotten etc, and this is how you end up with so many casualties.

I'd be dressed pretty differently for a mounted gig compared to dismounted one.  Sweat = uh oh.  Hell, if the Bravo 2-0 story is true, one of them tabbed with their heavy layers on and suffered for it.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I'd be dressed pretty differently for a mounted gig compared to dismounted one.  Sweat = uh oh.  Hell, if the Bravo 2-0 story is true, one of them tabbed with their heavy layers on and suffered for it.

I recall being in the tobogan traces at -30c, stripped from the waist up down to my long underwear top/wool shirt, trigger mitts and balaclava and being quite comfortable. As soon as we stopped, my parka would come on for the halt. It is all about being quick on adding/removing layering.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Those of you who may know mikeninercharlie, he can attest to a certain Ex Rapier Thrust in '81 or '82 when guys were dropping like flies from all the units in the brigade due to cold injuries.

 

[OldSolduer]

Those of you who may know mikeninercharlie, he can attest to a certain Ex Rapier Thrust in '81 or '82 when guys were dropping like flies from all the units in the brigade due to cold injuries.

I remember Raping and Thrusting 82. It was about minus one billion. Not fun.

 

[ballz]

I guess now would be a real inopportune time for the CA to have to answer questions about its mukluks, fleece, and cold weather glove shortages... :dunno:

 

[OldSolduer]

I guess now would be a real inopportune time for the CA to have to answer questions about its mukluks, fleece, and cold weather glove shortages... :dunno:

A few years ago, 2012 I think, the Div Comd visited Minto Armories. He and his entourage were quite taken aback when I informed him that our 10 man tents were in poor repair and it seems new ones were not forthcoming. Our Bde G4 was rattling the bushes to find us new ones already.

 

[AbdullahD]

A few years ago, 2012 I think, the Div Comd visited Minto Armories. He and his entourage were quite taken aback when I informed him that our 10 man tents were in poor repair and it seems new ones were not forthcoming. Our Bde G4 was rattling the bushes to find us new ones already.

(Rant)Ok, I am kind of getting ticked at this thread and episode. First I was kind of laughing, "Haha these idiots can't survive in the cold", then I was puzzled.. "how did this actually happen"... Now I am genuinely curious, if the story of an vehicle bug out turn hiking bug out drill. With lack of proper training, gear etc turned bad is true...

Tents, how in the world is it that we are failing in tents. I get it we are under funded, we are under manned etc, we as a nation need to address this... but why or how are we planning training exercises with inadequate equipment and/or training.

Or am I missing something?(/end rant)
Sorry I just needed to vent that out, it is an embarrassment.

Abdullah

 

[JesseWZ]

I think we fail in far more then just tents... for an army that operates North of 49, we have procurement issues with a host of cold weather related items...

 

[childs56]

I am not sure how a situation like this happened. Simply put, the Canadian Forces have some really good cold weather gear. People will complain about any kit no matter what.
You should be able to survive with basic issue of kit as long as you use it properly.
To me reading articles that Soldiers do not know how to use or make range cards, then read an article that they are suffering frost bite tells me one basic thing. A total of LEADERSHIP. (or nowadays is it management/ supervisory skills) either way the leaders failed.
It seems like the Leaders need to get back to the basics, and they need to learn from the top down. If their troops were not prepared for march, then their leaers hsould have spoke up and ensured there Troops were properly turned out before setting foot.

Using the excuse they were mounted, then at the last minute dismounted does not hold hold any water. If your in mounted Ops in the winter then you should be prepared incase your ride breaks down and you have to hoof it out.
I shake my head.

Sometimes crap happens, but this seems more like a wet one ran down the leg and they ignored it.

 

[ModlrMike]

Perhaps we can be a little less eager to hang the leaders; after all, we wern't there. You can take all the necessary precautions, but you still can't prevent people from doing stupid stuff. If you could, I'd be out of work.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Perhaps we can be a little less eager to hang the leaders; after all, we wern't there. You can take all the necessary precautions, but you still can't prevent people from doing stupid stuff. If you could, I'd be out of work.

Off on their own yes, but thats why we have leaders, to prevent people from doing stupid stuff, otherwise why even have leaders?

 

[Journeyman]

Off on their own yes, but thats why we have leaders, to prevent people from doing stupid stuff, otherwise why even have leaders?

    :nod: !

I've had Sgts tell me I was doing stupid stuff;  on occasion, some even raised their voices.  Yet somehow, my feelings weren't hurt.  Different times, I guess.  :dunno:


(In hindsight, I imagine some folks wish the NCOs had kept quiet and just let Darwinism do its thing  )

 

[Jarnhamar]

The Winter warfare/survival "course" is, in my opinion, like the basic Machinegun/support weapons course.

Very minimal information gets passed on about very basic stuff, and we're always taking away material and course time-not adding to it

Alot of the stuff you need to know isn't in the lesson plans but rather passed down through experience.

If privates and corporals aren't taught this stuff then they can't teach and speak to it when they're mcpls and sgts.

There's alot of skill fade and it's because units are too busy trying to cram too much shit into training cycles. Whitespace and budget play a big part, like, your unit only being given a day to do toboggan/tent routine training (and troops have to brown bag their lunch because we can't afford to issue rations).

For the most part winter equipment is fine and in areas improved considerably over the last 20 years-but lessons learned are struggling to survive.

I don't know the story, I have some suspicions on what happened, but I can honestly say the Dragoons are one of the busiest units I know and I can very easily believe basic winter warfare skills get overlooked because they're trying to fill so many no fail tasks.