Canadian Mounted Riles

[cody6]

Hi all ,Im tying to research the forming of the CMR,particularly those members who served during the Boer War.The reason being I have in my pocession a Mauser "Broomhandle" pistol with the initials J.H.W & CMR inscribed on the magazine.The shoulder stock has the word Bloemfontain inscribed on one side & the letter W on the other.Any info would be appreciated Cody

 

[Old Sweat]

Hi Cody,

I became interested in the South African War many, many years ago and have collected a fairly large library of reference material. The Canadian Mounted Rifles (CMR) was the name that was used for several different Canadian units as follows:

a. Second Contingent - 1st and 2nd Battalions, CMR. The 1st Battalion was formed around a regular cadre from the Royal Canadian Dragoons (RCD) and was redesignated as the RCD while in theatre. The 2nd Battalion was based on the North West Mounted Police and after the 1st Bn adopted the RCD title, dropped the 2nd Battalion. These units were each two squadrons strong and were equipped with Mk1 Lee-Enfields and Colt revolvers. It is my opinion, based on my study of the war, that the RCD was the best Canadian unit on a man-for-man basis that served in South Africa, and probably ranks amongst the best overall.

b. Third Contingent - 2nd Regiment Canadian Mounted Rifles. This unit was raised and paid for by the British in Canada in 1902. As recruiting was good, it ended up six squadrons strong. The regiment was equipped on British scales so pistols were restricted to officers and a few other appoinments. This unit was considerable service in early 1902, including at Harts River.

c. Fourth Contingent - 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Regiments, Canadian Mounted Rifles. These units, each of three squadrons, were quickly raised by the British in 1902 as the ease with which the 2nd Regiment was recruited showed that there was ample manpower willing and able to serve. Unfortunately they arrived after the end of the war and except for a number of members who joined the South African Constabulary, were returned to Canada and discharged with indecent haste.

As revolvers were supplied for the RCD and CMR, it is possible that your Mauser may have belonged to a member, probably an officer, in one of the later units, probably the 2nd Regiment CMR as Bloemfontein is well inland. Officers were supposed to provide their own pistols and this may be the case here.

As an aside, I believe there was a South African unit called the Cape Mounted Rifles, so . . .

Do you have a model number, place and date of manufacture and serial number for the pistol? I have a few references re small arms used by both sides and may be able to help. As I am not an expert on small arms, I caution you not to expect the moon, but you may get lucky.

 

[cody6]

Hi thanks for interest,I do not own the Mauser,it belongs to elderly friend who is trying to sell it FYI
-The serial # is 12xxx
- The serial number would indicate the pistol was manufactured 1897/1898
-The pistol was imported into N.America by the firm of Von Lengerke & Detmold,the firms name is inscribribed on the left side of the magazine
-The pistol I believe is a Early large ring transitional model
--The present owner purchased the pistol for $40.00 some fifty years ago
-The previous owner was a Thomas Donald a police officer stationed in Winnipeg during the Twenties & into the Thirties
-When he died he  left the pistol to his sister Ina Donald who kept it for some years before selling it to the present owner
-Ive been doing this research on behalf of a American Historical fireams collector(i find it rather sad that this piece of Canadian Military History will probably be sent out of the country)
-Anyhow I'm pretty sure the initials CMR represent the Canadian Mounted Rifles,as for the initials J.H.W. I believe they belong to the original owner
--What I need help on is establishing who J.H.W is ?
-After researching Canadian Military records for that period,I managed to find the name Williams DCM who died in 1918 who saw action with the CMR during the Boer war.
-As military records for that period are incomplete its hard to say with certainty whethere Mr. Williams was the original owner
-Any ideas,thoughts etc. would be greatly appreciated-Best Regards-Cody

 

[Old Sweat]

Cody,

I will get at it in the morning. There were a whole hockey sock full of Mausers sold during the war.The first check is to see if any officers had those initials.

FYI Boer War enlistment documents are available on line from the National Archives.

 

[TCBF]

Williams DCM: could the DCM in this case be "Distinguished Conduct Medal" ?

If you want this to stay in Canada, you could try offering it on the Canadian Firearms Digest, or Canadian GunNutz.

Tom

 

[Old Sweat]

Cody,

Let me address the pistol first. The British allowed considerable latitude in the purchase of side arms for officers. One of the more popular was the Mauser. Bester's Small Arms of the Anglo-Boer War 1899-1902 includes a photo of a 7.63 Mauser Model 1896 on page 69. Thus it is quite possible, but not certain. that the weapon in question was carried in South Africa, perhaps by a Canadian. You mentioned the inscription "Bloemfontain." Can you confirm that spelling, as the correct spelling is Bloemfontein?

Now, the initials JHW. You rightly concentrated on JH Williams who served in the CMR. In fact it appears he did two tours in country, one in G Company 2RCR and the other in the CMR as he has two regimental numbers listed beside his name in the Index to Canadian service records of the South African War (1899-1902) held at the National Archives of Canada compiled by the British Isles Family History Socety of Greater Ottawa in 1999. One is clearly a RCR number and his name appears on the nominal role.

Can we connect him to the pistol? No, and if he won a Distinguished Conduct Medal, it was not in South Africa as his name does not appear in either South African Honours and Awards, 1899-1902, which originally was published by the Army and Navy Gazette in 1902 or Abbott's Recipients of the Distingusihed Conduct Medal 1855-1909. Furthermore, as an other rank, it is unlikely that he would have been allowed to procure his own pistol.

I have checked the list of officers in the CMR regiments in the third and fourth contingents, and none have initials that match.

In summary, I could not put my hand on my heart and state that the pistol was carried by a Canadian in the South African War. Sorry.

 

[George Wallace]

I had a quick look at the London Gazette for JH Williams and DCM with no luck for the period 1900 to 1918:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/index.asp?webType=0

You can usually trace all Commonwealth Award winners here, including Boer War recipients.

 

[AylesfordLake]

I'm a total novice when it comes to the Boer War...and a borderline idiot when it comes to guns...but I was so intrigued with your post I did a little googling to see what your gun looked like...and after hitting this UK gun site I'm not sure CMR means Canadian Mounted Rifles...(but what do I know)

http://www.btinternet.com/~cmr.international/index.htm or maybe it does?

 

[George Wallace]

The RCD were at Bloemfontein, a key town on the rail line, in April 1900.  There was a Major V.A.S. Williams in the RCD at that time.  His father had also been a Officer, in the NW Rebellion, and had presented him with some of his paraphernalia.  I will have to dig some more for his fathers initials.

 

[cody6]

Hi,all thanks for the interest,to answer your questions
-I made a typo error Bloemfontain s/b Bloemfontein
-Interesting the Classic Arms Company initials are the same as those on the Mauser,anybody know the history of this company?
-I would prefer the pistol stays in Canada,but the present owner just wants to sell it to the highest bidder,regardless of were they live.
-I tried advertising the pistol on the Canadian gun sites mentioned,lots of interest,but the only serious ones
came from American collectors
-I have given thought to purchasing the Mauser for myself,but as the pistol is considered a restricted weapon by the CFC I decided to pass on it(i collect only antique firearms of historic interest)-
-I could write a short story about the hassle I had in importing a Spencer repeating rifle I purchased in the U.S.
-Anyhow once again thanks for the interest-Cody
P.S. If anybody knows a Canadian collector who might be interested pls advise

 

[Old Sweat]

George,

Unless I have misread a source, Major Williams's father had commanded the Midland Battalion in the NW Rebellion and died of disease sometime after Batoche. I do not think the pistol in question belonged to VAS Williams, but I could be wrong.

 

[George Wallace]

George,

Unless I have misread a source, Major Williams's father had commanded the Midland Battalion in the NW Rebellion and died of disease sometime after Batoche. I do not think the pistol in question belonged to VAS Williams, but I could be wrong.

I know his father was not an RCD in the NW Rebellion, but we do have his sword along with VAS Williams on display in the Head Shed.  It was Col A.T.H. Williams MP who led the charge at Batouche.  So I guess that takes care of two Williams, and neither is a match.

 

[Lineman052]

Gents, I have some contacts who may be interested, Has anyone thought of the War Museum, Museum of the Regts in Calgary, RCD museum even the RCR museum in London to see if there is any interest?  I will get back soonest.

 

[paracowboy]

hell, I'll buy it! What's he want for it? Actually, let's take this to pms.