Canadian Army Prohibits Purchase of Commercial Kit

[armyvern]

We always worked on the notion, " If it's in the system, we'll get it ". And we usually found it.

And, even when there is no stock in the system, there is a process for these types of items. I'll give you "Touque, OD" as an example. Because it is clothing (a clothing doc and LFC Op Clothing & Eqpt scaled item) - it is "Centrally managed and centrally funded": IE: it is supplied to the CF by a contracted supplier. We were experiencing a "Nil National Stock" in the middle of the winter and the supplier was confirmed as being unable to supply (an EDD of 4 months - ie: June ~ the summer); we ergo requested the SM approve us to LPO 500each green toques and send us the "national fin code" to use for the purchase. This was approved as the troops needed something warm to wear in their heads in February, vice June. We recd the authority to buy and the fin code. We purchased the items and BOCd them at 2nd line supply (clothing stores) and we then issued them onto the troops clothing docs. Thus, these items were visible & known by central and were also visible and accountably issued onto the clothing docs of the pers who recd them.

Now, if the SM had 10000 due in from the contractor in the next two weeks, our request would have been denied. If a 1st line Unit would have went out and bought 500 using O&M monies anyway ... that would have been money wasted. That is why the proper process needs to be used. That's just toques - imagine the funds expended (with no national visiblity of the item actually being in the CF somewhere) when you get into high dollar value items such as gennies being bought with O&M funds at 1st line level - that neither central nor 2nd line has no idea even exist because they are neither brought onto charge (ie held accountable for) nor visible to anyone on the supply system.

 

[Fusaki]

I understand that there are a number of good reasons why COs can not be allowed to circumvent the system to get the gear they want.  But that doesn't change the fact that lives depend on troops getting the gear they need. 

Take the SNAFU in trying to get new load carriage systems:  It took years for the big army to realize that the Tacvest wasn't good enough, and then years to figure out what to do about it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the war will be over by the time new load carriage gets to the end user.

And the irony is that once we're out of Afghanistan, the current TV will probably be sufficient for the kinds of non-combat operations we'll have to look forward to over the next few years.  We will eventually get new load carriage, but it will end up being a huge waste of money because by the time the next war rolls around it will all be outdated. At that point, we're going to have to do a new trial to figure out what the next best thing is, and the end user will see it just after we pull out of our combat roll there too.

Do I sound cynical?  I must be a CPL...

I don't think it's right that troops should have to buy their own gear because the system is broken, and  I'm sympathetic to COs who are willing to cut through the bullshit to get guys what they need in a reasonable time.

 

[armyvern]

I understand that there are a number of good reasons why COs can not be allowed to circumvent the system to get the gear they want.  But that doesn't change the fact that lives depend on troops getting the gear they need. 

Take the SNAFU in trying to get new load carriage systems:  It took years for the big army to realize that the Tacvest wasn't good enough, and then years to figure out what to do about it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the war will be over by the time new load carriage gets to the end user.

And the irony is that once we're out of Afghanistan, the current TV will probably be sufficient for the kinds of non-combat operations we'll have to look forward to over the next few years.  We will eventually get new load carriage, but it will end up being a huge waste of money because by the time the next war rolls around it will all be outdated. At that point, we're going to have to do a new trial to figure out what the next best thing is, and the end user will see it just after we pull out of our combat roll there too.

Do I sound cynical?  I must be a CPL...

I don't think it's right that troops should have to buy their own gear because the system is broken, and  I'm sympathetic to COs who are willing to cut through the bullshit to get guys what they need in a reasonable time.

Effeciency in trials and follow up procurement is lacking; I'd agree with you on that. This needs to improve (& it is somewhat improving. Post TFA - ... whether that continues, remains to be seen).

BUT, a lot of that is outside of the CFs hands too ... enter other Fed depts/politics into the process. One day, someone will sort that out hopefully. I really do wish that I'd be around to see it happen.

 

[57Chevy]

I don't think it's right that troops should have to buy their own gear because the system is broken, and  I'm sympathetic to COs who are willing to cut through the bullshit to get guys what they need in a reasonable time.

There was a time when you were not allowed to include any non-issue kit.
Except for maybe underwear.
I found that a non-issue hooded pullover bought at my own expense was ideal for winter ops.

There have been items of kit that were tossed as useless, but remained as part of issued kit.
Units simply did not use them. They sat in the barrack box untill the system got rid of them, or
replaced them with a new and improved version.

I'm sure CO's work their contacts in the supply system to get the needed equipment for the troops.

The system is not broken. It works quite well. Kitting deficiencies have to come from the first line users.

 

[aesop081]

I must be a CPL...

This is not a rank thing so dont make it one. I'm not far up the ladder myself.

I don't think it's right that troops should have to buy their own gear because the system is broken,

I agree, dont get me wrong. But that doesnt make whats going on right either. Spending O&M money on equipment that is available through other means is just as wrong. That money is there to allow the unit to train, function and maintain its equipment. If you are spending it on stoves ( example) that are available in the system if people used that system, you shortchange the troops just as much.

"Cant train like we fight troops......we spent the training money on new gucci camping stoves"

 

[Fusaki]

Spending O&M money on equipment that is available through other means is just as wrong. That money is there to allow the unit to train, function and maintain its equipment. If you are spending it on stoves ( example) that are available in the system if people used that system, you shortchange the troops just as much.

I don't think the issue here is CO's buying stuff with O&M money that they can get for free.  I think the issue is that CO's are buying stuff that they feel like, for some reason, they can not get any other way.

 

[aesop081]

I don't think the issue here is CO's buying stuff with O&M money that they can get for free. 

Paragraph C of the message would indicate that this is indeed at the heart of the problem

C. CAMP STORES. TENTAGE, COTS, SLEEPING SYSTEMS, AIR MATRESSES OR SLEEPING PADS, GENERATORS / HEATERS OR THEIR ANCILLARY EQUIPMENT, STOVES, POWER DISTIRBUTION, LIGHTING KITS AND VCP KITS

This is all supplied by the system as described by Armyvern earlier. If money is being spent by COs from the O&M budgets, this is blatantly wrong as she further explained.

 

[Fusaki]

I don't think guys who spend money on stuff they could have for free typically make it to CO.  It kind of makes me think that there is more to this story.

 

[aesop081]

I don't think guys who spend money on stuff they could have for free typically make it to CO.

I've seen enough over the years to make me think differently.

It kind of makes me think that there is more to this story.

Thats very possible.

 

[57Chevy]

Wonderbread and Cdn Aviator

  If you and others in your unit have sling problems and seems to be widespread, then you should
pass that information back into the system. (Supply) They are more than willing to bring the issue
to dept heads and contractors where the problem can be fixed or altered. That's how the system is supposed to work. If the user units do nothing to remedy the problem then the contractor makes
more of the same crap. Another words.........nobody flippin knows about the sling problem. And you
end up getting a new crap sling.
So, just where is the system broke?.............The first line user
I think there is a form to fill out regarding equipment deficiencies, but I don't recall the number.

 

[aesop081]

Wonderbread and Cdn Aviator

  If you and others in your unit have sling problems and seems to be widespread, then you should
pass that information back into the system.

My unit does not have an issue with O&M going to things like this and equipment problems are being handled the way they should be.

We have had a multitude of flashlights issued that were unsuitable and this is being adressed by the system. Other stuff is taking longer but its being worked on......

 

[211RadOp]

I think there is a form to fill out regarding equipment deficiencies, but I don't recall the number.

CF 777 Unsatisfactory Condition Report

http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/ts-st/sup-app/ucr-rens-cf777-eng.asp

 

[Fusaki]

57Chevy,

After a years of first line users submitting UCRs, the army eventually conceded that the current issued Tactical Vest was not sufficient for current operations in Afghanistan.  Among other shortfalls, the TV only holds 4 of the 9 rifle mags deemed necessary for carry in that high threat environment.  After extensive trials, the army eventually chose a new load carriage system that supposedly remedied these shortfalls.  While the soldiers of TF 1-10 were initially told that they would be issued this new load carriage system, they were told later that the program had been held up and that they would continue to have to make due overseas with the currently issued TacVest.

As an interim measure, soldiers were authorized to purchase and wear load bearing gear offered by a handful of authorized civilian manufacturers.  I'm no longer in the Reg Force, but my former unit is currently deployed with TF 1-10.  Looking at the photos my friends have sent home, it looks like at least half of the guys have gone this route.

The problem with what you've described above is that the system is SLOW.  By the time that the army receives enough UCRs to recognise a problem, conduct trials, buy the equipment, and issue it out to the end user, the war will be over.  That's not an exaggeration.  It's exactly what is happening with the new load carriage system.  Personally, I don't think it's right that young soldiers should have to buy their own gear because the army bureaucracy is too slow to provide them with what they need.

It seems to me that COs are being caught between a rock and a hard place.  On one hand, they have Generals who don't want them to circumvent the system.  On the other hand, they have a mission that they judge would have a higher chance of success if they "re-allocated" O&M money into new equipment.  The system is obviously broken, and I find it hard to blame the unit commanders for trying to cut through the bureaucratic bullshit in order to get the job done.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Side note

The MFR went out for a "competitive" tender, which really wasn't, since the tender specified a specific attachment system only found on SORD products from Australlia. So suddenly the competitive tender became sole source, without actually have to sole source the product.

Because of a handfull of soldiers who wore SORD gear overseas on a tour, it has now become the new MFR for Canada. Not a Canadian made product nor even a US made product, which in my opinion is far superior, but an product that got sole source because of the attachment system for the pouches, even though no other company or army uses it.

this is retarded.

 

[McG]

After a years of first line users submitting UCRs, the army eventually conceded that the current issued Tactical Vest was not sufficient for ...

Actually (as we've established in other threads) it was years of users complaining amoungst themselves and only a very small few who took the time to write a UCR.

 

[57Chevy]

Wonderbread
 
I know the system is slow on some issues. In fact, sometimes seems broken. But it's not. As long as
the first line users submit UCRs the supply system can remedy the situation. Armyvern mentions the
biggest problem being the "breach of contract" ordeal. Which is likely the most relevent case regarding
the load carrier problem. If, and I say "If" that is the problem that the supply system has encountered,
then LGEN Leslie is pointing the way to the first line users, and COs of those units. As recceguy mentions, there are options to imaginitive unit COs. And monies for procurement of these items could
be raised by a number of methods as mentioned by Overwatch D.

An "alert" commercial supplier or sponser could in fact offer the troops specific items like load bearing carriers or slings, or anything for that matter, overriding any possible breach of contract to the supply system.
And I must agree with you that the front line soldier should not have to use his own monies to purchase normal issued kit. Personal comfort kit is another story.
Best Regards  :yellow:

 

[Recon 3690]

SSDD, this has been going on for over 100 years in Canada, our Soldiers getting killed because of a lack of appropriate kit caused by political considerations, greed at higher levels, & the quest for uniformity at any cost. Just a few examples Oliver Pattern gear in the Boer War & WW I, and how about that Ross Rifle. Our troops have always had to buy, scavenge, & steal what the needed to get the job done. Then along comes some POS parade square RSM or CO saying you can't use that its not uniform.

Have heart we will fight the next war with what you need now.

 

[SeanNewman]

People are going to gripe about CF kit for the rest of their careers, and those people can sum up and do their jobs.

I am quite happy with all the money has been spent in the last 10 years on new equipment and clothing.

If we had been fighting in A'stan in 2000 we would have had olive drab, old webbing, puck-soled boots, a rubber rain jacket, no ballistic eyewear, no Camelbacks, a NBCW backpack, and wool underwear.

I will be the dissenter from the ranks here and say thank you to LGen Leslie for getting us all the kit you have.  I really appreciate it and I know it has saved a lot of lives.  Some people would gripe if you bought them a Ferrari because it wasn't a Lamborghini.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I am quite happy with all the money has been spent in the last 10 years on new equipment and clothing.

I will be the dissenter from the ranks here and say thank you to LGen Leslie for getting us all the kit you have.  I really appreciate it and I know it has saved a lot of lives.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

[Infanteer]

People are going to gripe about CF kit for the rest of their careers, and those people can sum up and do their jobs.

I am quite happy with all the money has been spent in the last 10 years on new equipment and clothing.

If we had been fighting in A'stan in 2000 we would have had olive drab, old webbing, puck-soled boots, a rubber rain jacket, no ballistic eyewear, no Camelbacks, a NBCW backpack, and wool underwear.

I will be the dissenter from the ranks here and say thank you to LGen Leslie for getting us all the kit you have.  I really appreciate it and I know it has saved a lot of lives.  Some people would gripe if you bought them a Ferrari because it wasn't a Lamborghini.

The order is pretty simple - CO's shouldn't be spending money on stuff that the money isn't supposed to be spent on; I don't see what the complaint is about.

You could probably extend that to a lot of other things.  10 years ago, in all that gear, I was attacking an ML on a hill with blanks.  Fast forward to now and all the sudden it's all live with Apaches blowing stuff up.

Should we talk about the pay 15 years ago?