• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Canada's tanks

Yup. So far the M109 is handraulic. As is the process of getting the rounds into those racks. There's been a lot of improvement using the MACS propellant over the old white bag, green bag red bag charges but the biggest challenge is having having a mix of projectiles handy within very limited storage space inside the turret. The Americans and Koreans have a reasonable armoured ammo limber in the M992 and K10 and even though they have a conveyor to connect the two vehicles the Americans hardly ever use theirs and often remove them from the vehicle. We used to use the M548 which also meant hand moving rounds from the back of it into the turret.

There are a few videos out there talking about an autoloader on the M109A7 but in reality its a loading tray with an automated rammer. It's still necessary for a gun number to take a round off the rack and place it on the tray. The rammer does look like an improvement over the ones we had (and we had two of those - the earlier one cab mounted the newer one breech mounted.)

There was supposed to be an autoloader coming for the ERCA but the ERCA disappeared off the table. Brochures for the M109-52 do not talk about an autoloader.


There's no simple solution yet. Every automated solution is a combination of compromises with a functioning technical solution being the least of the problem. In my view its the loadout, the resupply process and the tactical employment are. Most of those can be solved by redundant systems to cycle into and out of reload phases. But no one wants to pay for a twelve-gun Archer battery that can guarantee six guns being in action at any given time. That's the Russian solution - a motor rifle brigade supporting four manoeuvre battalions with two 18-gun howitzer battalions and one 18-launcher MLRS battalion.

I was just rereading an interview of one of our FOOs on Op Intizaar Zmarey in Oct 07. He did a mission using a two-gun troop that consisted of five cycles of twenty rounds fire for effect (i.e. 20 rds per gun fired five times). Each of those cycles would have emptied an Archer and sent it out of action for a reload (The Archer carries 21 rounds in its magazine [the AGM carries 30] and when you consider some of those may need to be smoke you can start to see the issue.)

Even with pallet loads with HIAB type cranes on the trucks there's still always the need to break-bulk on pallets at some point. Even on an Archer to get it into that cargo truck that they call an ammo limber. People continue to matter.

🍻
My friend served on them and wrote a book that also talks about them. https://www.amazon.ca/Marines-Under-Armor-Fighting-1916-2000/dp/1557502374
 
the Army started experimenting with Robotic Combat Vehicles that had no human crew aboard at all. The long-term goal is to have a single soldier oversee a whole wolfpack of RCVs, but the current proto-prototypes are operated by remote control, with a crew of two: a gunner/sensor operator and a driver. The Army has been impressed by how well these teleoperated RCVs have performed in field trials. If two soldiers can effectively operate a vehicle they’re not even in, might two be enough to operate a manned vehicle as well?


WASHINGTON: Field tests and computer models have convinced the Army that future armored vehicles can fight with just two human crew, assisted by automation, instead of the traditional three or more, the service’s armor modernization chief told me.
That confidence drove the Army, in its draft Request For Proposals released on the 17th, to require a two-soldier crew for its future Optionally Manned Fighting Vehicle.
“As we speak,” he told me in an interview last week, “we’ve got those Mission-Enabling Technology Demonstrators, or MET-D, actually maneuvering at Fort Carson, Colorado, as part of the Robotic Combat Vehicle test.”

With the benefit of modern automation, Coffman said, those two-soldier crews have proven able to maneuver around obstacles, look out for threats, and engage targets — without being overwhelmed by too many simultaneous demands. “They’re doing that both in simulation and real world at Carson right now,” Coffman told me.

“You have two humans with a virtual crewmember that will remove cognitive load from the humans and allow the functions of gunning, and driving, and commanding the vehicle to be shared between humans and machines,” Coffman said. “We think that the technology has matured to the point where …this third virtual crewmember will provide the situational awareness to allow our soldiers to fight effectively.”

....

So, if AI/UGV/RCV/Robotics are to be fielded -

Who maintains them?
Are they to be designed to be maintained? Or are they "attritable"?

If the RCVs require a mothership doesn't the mothership become the target? Do you put 4 people in the mothership and try and armour it, making it bigger and heavier and slower and a more obvious target?

Or do you distribute the 4 in the mothership across the 4 RCVs and just build titanium cocoons for the occupants?

The key element is going to be comms and data-sharing among the 4 RCVs and their human passengers.

The human is not going to fight his or her vehicle, he or she is going to manage his or her task for the "patrol". Someone to command the patrol, someone to plan the route, someone to manage the air battle, someone to manage the ground battle. The vehicles observing, reporting and acting on command.
 
Improving the "handraulic".

I can see powered exoskeletons on the logistic side coming into the battlefield in the next 10 years. They could be attached to the truck, which charges them, allows the operator to do work which the hiab can't do, or work in tandem with it.
 
The human is not going to fight his or her vehicle, he or she is going to manage his or her task for the "patrol".
I can see powered exoskeletons on the logistic side coming into the battlefield in the next 10 years. They could be attached to the truck, which charges them, allows the operator to do work which the hiab can't do, or work in tandem with it.
Let me simply say that I know that there is a future for mechanical assists and remote controlled and autonomous systems out there. Hell the speed of AI development has caught me by surprise and I'm a guy who figures that the "Terminator" future is not mere science fiction and that the three laws of Robotics are not carved in stone (or hard wired into processor chips).

I think the two weak links in the systems are power sources and communication links. Everything else is pretty much feasible. That's why I think @Colin Parkinson's suggestion is a very strong one because it has a way of solving the power problem and can keep all the control links in shielded channels.

When I look at autonomous vehicles I have to chuckle considering how many of our current fleet of relatively simple automotives break down even when handled by live humans. I have to wonder what the battlefield management system will be for failed autonomous circuitry and vehicles all over the battlefield with our reduced wetware support. Not everything will be a disposable system and even disposable systems are an administrative burden. There are still a lot of challenges out there before we have these types of systems at scale. Just riffing off the M109 issue above, look at how many years folks had spent on building a decent autoloader for the M1299 and aren't there yet. And then think of the myriad of stoppages on our weapon systems that all need drills and human intervention to resolve. That sh*t isn't going away in the near future.

🍻
 
Let me simply say that I know that there is a future for mechanical assists and remote controlled and autonomous systems out there. Hell the speed of AI development has caught me by surprise and I'm a guy who figures that the "Terminator" future is not mere science fiction and that the three laws of Robotics are not carved in stone (or hard wired into processor chips).

I think the two weak links in the systems are power sources and communication links. Everything else is pretty much feasible. That's why I think @Colin Parkinson's suggestion is a very strong one because it has a way of solving the power problem and can keep all the control links in shielded channels.

When I look at autonomous vehicles I have to chuckle considering how many of our current fleet of relatively simple automotives break down even when handled by live humans. I have to wonder what the battlefield management system will be for failed autonomous circuitry and vehicles all over the battlefield with our reduced wetware support. Not everything will be a disposable system and even disposable systems are an administrative burden. There are still a lot of challenges out there before we have these types of systems at scale. Just riffing off the M109 issue above, look at how many years folks had spent on building a decent autoloader for the M1299 and aren't there yet. And then think of the myriad of stoppages on our weapon systems that all need drills and human intervention to resolve. That sh*t isn't going away in the near future.

🍻
Considering a jam of some kind: will the (say) automated turret on your tag-along SPG be big enough for the inevitable human(s)*, roused out of their oversight vehicle, to get in with wrenches and crowbars to sort the offending system?

Or will someone design the thing so you need a crane and hours of unbolting to even see the fault?

* Also, on a somewhat lighter note: will Future Artillery, running an automated gun-line, encompass the sort of beefy person useful around uncooperative large mechanical things?
 
* Also, on a somewhat lighter note: will Future Artillery, running an automated gun-line, encompass the sort of beefy person useful around uncooperative large mechanical things?
:ROFLMAO: "Beefy Person" caused a sudden flashback on a gunner I once knew back in the dark ages nicknamed "Tank" whose claim to fame was lifting four 155mm projectiles, two per hand, by carrying them by the lifting ring nose plug that they come with (fuzes came separately) - that's 186 lbs per hand.

On a lighter note, most gunners are actually a pretty average bunch of folks and, if anything, trending to the lighter side. Over and above that, there is a fairly substantial female population in the artillery who've all pulled their weight on the gunline for decades now.

🍻
 
Considering a jam of some kind: will the (say) automated turret on your tag-along SPG be big enough for the inevitable human(s)*, roused out of their oversight vehicle, to get in with wrenches and crowbars to sort the offending system?

Or will someone design the thing so you need a crane and hours of unbolting to even see the fault?

* Also, on a somewhat lighter note: will Future Artillery, running an automated gun-line, encompass the sort of beefy person useful around uncooperative large mechanical things?
Judging by the average car today, maintenance on these UGV will deeply suck
 
:ROFLMAO: "Beefy Person" caused a sudden flashback on a gunner I once knew back in the dark ages nicknamed "Tank" whose claim to fame was lifting four 155mm projectiles, two per hand, by carrying them by the lifting ring nose plug that they come with (fuzes came separately) - that's 186 lbs per hand.

On a lighter note, most gunners are actually a pretty average bunch of folks and, if anything, trending to the lighter side. Over and above that, there is a fairly substantial female population in the artillery who've all pulled their weight on the gunline for decades now.

🍻
Like the MBdr that was in Range Control one day - he was one big dude. So I asked him "let me guess - you were the ammo guy on the gun, right?"

His response - "yes sir I was"
 
:ROFLMAO: "Beefy Person" caused a sudden flashback on a gunner I once knew back in the dark ages nicknamed "Tank" whose claim to fame was lifting four 155mm projectiles, two per hand, by carrying them by the lifting ring nose plug that they come with (fuzes came separately) - that's 186 lbs per hand.

On a lighter note, most gunners are actually a pretty average bunch of folks and, if anything, trending to the lighter side. Over and above that, there is a fairly substantial female population in the artillery who've all pulled their weight on the gunline for decades now.

🍻
So noted re: the last para!

As for Tank: bloody hell.
 
On a lighter note, most gunners are actually a pretty average bunch of folks and, if anything, trending to the lighter side. Over and above that, there is a fairly substantial female population in the artillery who've all pulled their weight on the gunline for decades now.

🍻

Queen’s Battery helps nudge that average away from lighter.
 
Back
Top