CAF Specialist Pay [Spec Pay]- All Trades [MERGED]

[Navy_Blue]

OK before we get started; no one here should question how much work a bos'n does at sea or along side.  They work there bags off and put up with allot.

Now, I heard today that starting next year QL5 qualified Bos'n will get spec pay.  Not only spec pay but retro back 3 yrs.  Can anyone confirm this??

It seems the military is trying to solve its manning issues by throwing money at the problem.  I'm an ET who is on his Tech course.  The members of the MSE & CSE classically got spec pay to account for how much schooling we go through and knowledge (we must retain) necessary to do our jobs.  Not to mention a typically slow career progression. 

Now we have most trades in Ops and Bos'n who will have spec pay.  The question being asked by allot of people in my trade is why go through 3 yrs of university crammed into a year and half.  Most Ops trades QL5 are short and sweet. 

My point is, (I don't wish to offend anyone here)  we pay doctors high wages for the knollage, training and accountability they must endour to become one.  Conversely we pay Nurses less because of there lower level training in the medical field.  It is the same case here I believe. I hope one day the people at the top of the MSE chain will Sue for Spec 2.

Sorry if I just stuck a stick in the hornets nest  >



Where does it all stop??

 

[FSTO]

As far as I know,( I'm at Sea Div) Bosn's are NOT getting spec pay.

 

[who980]

I hate to play devils advocate here but without that all those personnel manning the ops room that warship now becomes a cruise ship.  Basically, no operators = no warship.  MSE, CSE, Stewards, Supply Techs, Cooks etc are all onboard to support the Ops room in the end.  If they need to pay operators more to keep them around, then so be it.  Lets be real here, the ops room loses a lot of people to attrition and remuster than any other trade onboard a warship.  The people in those jobs only do their jobs when a ship is at sea, but they are a necessary element of an operational warship.  They are highly specialized and highly skilled.  As well, personnel who are in ops trades have no real prospects of employment post military due to their highly specialized training. 

Just a point of view
Ryan


 

 

[Navy_Blue]

I agree a specialist pay scale is necessary and I even agree some of the ops trades do deserve spec pay.  But where do you draw the line?? Medics are a highly skilled trade I feel deserves some recognition before anyone.  They're still waiting. 

It comes down to a list of tasks and a good CPO1 at the top driving the fight.  I think any trade on board ship but the logistics and fire fighters could come up with enough tasks to justify spec pay at the QL5 level.

There should be more levels of spec pay than just 2.  Say a master seaman in ops has this very heavy responsibility well give him more pay while in that billet.  IMCS techs give them a higher level of pay while in that billet.  There are many positions on board where people do much more than there counter parts.  With that kind of system not only can you reward people with promotions and spec pay; but it can be a reward to people who except responsibility, accountability and preform.  It would be more of an allowance and it would be somewhat short term.  Even account time in that postion and give the member a bonus when they are posted.  They know they are getting it then and don't miss it when its gone.

Your justification for your spec pay was that without you we're a cruise ship.  And we loose you to re musters.  We're gonna turn it around now and the MSE & CSE will be headed your way.  How many nights have you had to work along side?  How many weekend have you been called in to look at your radars in the ops room?  How many years have you slaved through school?  MSE & CSE are the first on and last off everyday and every trip.  We don't have any mystical trainers to go too all we have is constant maintenance and an expectation from the CO that we will sail when he wants.  They expect more from us academically and more work hours from us along side @ home or foreign port.  At sea we tend to stand one in three even when the rest of the ship is 1 in 4.  If you where asked if you would take the same pay for more work would you take it?  Its come full circle at one time the MSE where considered people with lower...we'll say job expectations (DIB's).  Then as our equipment and training evolved the Ops types became the (DIB's).  Its turning around again.

Oh and without CSE and MSE your cruise ship is an ugly grey barge.  We get you where you need to go and make sure your guns shoot and missiles strike home.  I can't believe you stuck us in the same list as Stewards (No offence to stewards...But seriously).

 

[Melbatoast]

A lot of bos'ns have been yapping about spec pay for years.  There's no way I can see them getting it, as the resulting feces storm would be huge.

As for the resentment from the techs about spec pay for the ops guys, I understand it because the ops community is largely pretty shiftless and don't work to earn it.  The Navy isn't discouraging that attitude, either, as the empasis seems to be just getting the ships out to sea, and treating fighting effectiveness as a secondary thing.  But if the ops guys are sitting around for months on end doing sweet FA a couple of things are going to happen - fighting the ship goes to hell, because it's a very hard thing to do unless you do it often, and the guys get resentful and cynical in a vicious cycle of hating themselves and their jobs.

We should really be going to those "mysterious trainers" at least a couple of times a week as a full team, instead of a few times a year.  Or at least at the section level, which my ship has been very good about this over the last year.  An added benefit is that you achieve CRRs well in advance of stuff like workups.  I've seen highly trained and regularly exercised ops teams, and my lord it is something to see in action.  I've also seen more undertrained ones and that can get pretty ugly.

The spec pay is a nice reward along the road to becoming a warfare director, which has got to up there among the most stressful jobs in the world.  And believe it or not there is a great deal of non-intuitive, specialist knowledge that you have to roll into talent to be an effective operator.  You absolutely have to develop the thinking part of your brain, it's hardly rote knowledge and digging into maintenance manuals.

Just because you may see a lot of ops guys sitting around revelling in their sloth doesn't mean that's why they get the incentive.

 

[Navalsnpr]

The original question at hand is answered by reviewing the document contained on the Director of Pay Policy and Development website at:

      MOC Trade Group

This will 100% answer all questions regarding who gets spec pay and who does not. As for Bosn MOC 181 (MOSID 00105), the answer is NO the do not receive specialist pay.

Trade Managers must apply to have a trade reassigned as "Specialist 1" or "Specialist 2" trade group, which ultimately goes to Treasury Board. This application must list all the "Tasks" that are required by the trade at each rank level. Each task is given a point value and a certain number of points is required to achieve each level. As well, tasks are assigned different points depending on hazard, complexness, training required, as well as other things. Additionally, some trades require a certain level of training to achieve Specialist Pay.

 

[Navy_Blue]

I know they don't as of right now.  Just wondering if it was in the works and further than just talk.  Thanks for the info sniper

As for the Point system MSE combined has over 15000 points.  Someone should be looking for spec 2.  This info is from a CPO that gave us a lecture in 04.  Does anyone know where you can find a site with info on the points system and what the requirement is for each level??  For my bank of useless info.  I'm just curious what it takes.  We all did that survey a few years back when ops was on there push for spec one.  I'll keep my fingers crossed  :

Melbatoast, are you suggesting that the tech trades only require book smarts to get the job done??

You absolutely have to develop the thinking part of your brain, it's hardly rote knowledge and digging into maintenance manual.

I'm definitely not an expert in the ops room and what goes on.  I know where the breakers are for the lights you guys manage to trip off regularly.  But I don't think you quite realize what it takes to get through our packages.  Stokers by far more than anyone have months of drawings and boards, mind numbing boards. 

I'm gonna show how much of a big geek I am and use an example from Star Trek.  Ever see Scotty or La Forge pull a solution to fix the shields out of his A$$.  "We'll re-rout the power through the EPS conduit 69...."  How could anyone know a ship that is that big from top to bottom?  Well after being in MSE for the last 4 years I know.  We have the same expectation and we're expected to work on the fly probably not unlike yourself. 

 

[Melbatoast]

No, I was thinking about this a bit today (because I don't have anything else to do...joking) and I believe it's because even though tech and operator trades both require high levels of knowledge and commitment, the fact is that tech trades have to apply it near 100% of the time (or the ship won't work), whereas it's possible for an operator to slack off for long periods of time and not appear to lose anything.  But the fact is that when the crap hits the fan it becomes very obvious who kept up their training and who didn't, and an operator has to do a lot of reading and practicing to maintain a decent edge, no matter how much talent he may have.

Short form - a tech has to learn everything in his field or he isn't effective 90% of the time.  An operator doesn't have to learn everything in his field because he will be able to get away with it 90% of the time.

We have an AB in the section right now who is a posterchild shiftless operator.  He's proud of the fact that he thinks we have "nothing to do," while his trade knowledge remains near zero despite the fact there is every opportunity for him to use his own initiative to get to a reasonable level.  What's even scarier is the fact that there are a lot of operators in the fleet like that - guys that wouldn't be able to tell you what TASOP stood for.  And I'm not kidding.  And for that I can see where the resentment comes from.  But I earn my spec 1, just as a lot of us do.  I really doubt the knowledge level between a junior stoker and a (quality) junior operator is much different, but the type of knowledge is.  The hard/dirty work, first aboard/last ashore business comes down to the old "I didn't make you choose your trade," as bad as it sounds.  I can see spec 2 for P2 and above stokers, but why not for 6B operators, too?

Furthermore I apologize for the booksmart comments, as I was getting a bit snippy.  But I'm pretty worn thin from the bitching, as it has been going on since the change was announced and continues to go on.

 

[hugh19]

Just in curiousness a friend of mine is a PO1 Cert 3. he tells me that once you get it you get spec 2. So why would they try to get spec 2 for a ql5 tech?

 

[Navy_Blue]

Thanks Melba  .  We used to tell you guys the same thing "you pick your trade." 

Cert 3 Stokers do get spec two.  That scale worked for us, before everyone else got spec pay it worked for them too.  I'm not necessarily saying a QL5 tech should get it either.  3 MOC's get spec 2, SAR Techs, Cert 3 Stokers and JTF.  If you can't tell form the list they are probably pretty intense mind altering jobs. 

This will all change.  If not were gonna start seeing the circle come round again and we (MSE & CSE) will have the manning issues again (we already do).  Why should I stay a LS or MS tech while my friends in the ops room all move into the C&PO's mess.  They need to add more levels of pay or come up with a new system.

"Its a vicious circle I'm fat because I eat and I eat because I'm fat"...lol  Same applies to Tech vs Ops.

 

[Melbatoast]

This will all change.  If not were gonna start seeing the circle come round again and we (MSE & CSE) will have the manning issues again (we already do).  Why should I stay a LS or MS tech while my friends in the ops room all move into the C&PO's mess.  They need to add more levels of pay or come up with a new system.

Believe me, not all ops/cbt guys are getting fasttracked.  Sonar is very stagnant (at least out here), because we went though that phase.  And i just missed it, wouldn't you know it.  A buddy and I sat down the other day and tried to figure out the soonest I could get a leaf, let alone my P2s, and we figured it would be at least after 9 years in, no sooner.  Lots of young Chiefs, even younger P1s, and a whole lot of 6B and ILQ qualified P2s are clogging stuff up from the mid level on up.

Navcomm is about where you'd expect it, not too fast and not too slow.  NCI, I don't really pay attention as nobody seems to stay posted in one place long enough in that trade to tell.  NESOP seems to be the only fast moving combat trade right now - one guy on my boat just (this week) got his leaf after only two PERs.

I don't think spec 1 is going to keep too many people in sonar as near-career killicks.

 

[Navy_Blue]

Ah Your wave is coming down then.  We are starting to see the top of ours.  Will be headed down soon.  Starting to see some very young chief and PO1's now.

 

 

[who980]

I was having a discussion with some of my co-workers about this very topic and we came to the conclusion that why is it such a big deal if operators get spec pay?  You arent going to lose your spec pay and it isnt coming out of your pocket.  In the end we are all a team and should be supporting each other.

Ryan

 

[Zoomie]

What the heck trade is Cert 3 Stokers - if they are Spec 2 and lumped in with the boys in Orange and Squirrels - they must be some pretty elite coal shovelers.

 

[NCRCrow]

Why should an MARS Officer SWC/ASWC ,make 15K more than a PO1 Director for doing the same stressful job? Plus the Po1 is the section head.

Why should a NESOP make less money than his counterparts (AESOP/291) in ELINT related jobs in Ottawa? That require retarded long math radar/EW courses?

It is good to sea that NDHQ is realizing all the different aspects/jobs of Naval trades ashore and the abilities/skills needed to be competant.

I forgot my point, but please do give INT OPS spec pay!!!! They just put there name on other people information and call there own.

 

[Collin.t]

Why should a NESOP make less money than his counterparts (AESOP/291) in ELINT related jobs in Ottawa? That require retarded long math radar/EW courses?

I don't think the two (275 and 291) really can relate that much to each other, 291 is more sigint, as in interception capabilities and direction finding, hell they spend over a year learning morse code....

 

[hugh19]

I don't think the two (275 and 291) really can relate that much to each other, 291 is more sigint, as in interception capabilities and direction finding, hell they spend over a year learning morse code....

Um 276 is the old nesop trade number. What do u think a Nesop does? Interception and direction finding plus other jobs. I am a ew analyst in Ottawa.  Thats funny a year to learn morse?  Navcomms have much less time to learn morse plus many other things. So does that mean 291ers are really really slow?

 

[NCRCrow]

Mr Collin T:

Thats a pretty rookie statement!! A better statement would be:

291ers deal with strategic SIGINT and NESOP's tactical SIGINT level.

Have you ever heard of Trinity/Athena/CFEWC?

NESOPS do ELINT and COMINT plus all levels of Radar Analysis. So do 291ers! What a coincidence!

CDSE is under the PO1 NESOP SWC on ships!

 

[Inch]

Cert 3 Stokers do get spec two.  That scale worked for us, before everyone else got spec pay it worked for them too.  I'm not necessarily saying a QL5 tech should get it either.  3 MOC's get spec 2, SAR Techs, Cert 3 Stokers and JTF.  If you can't tell form the list they are probably pretty intense mind altering jobs. 

Not entirely correct, there are 4 trades that get Spec 2: Flight Engineer (MOC 091) , SAR Tech (MOC 131), Non-Destructive Testing Tech (MOC 532) and Marine Engineering Artificer (MOC 314).

JTF is not a trade, they would get their normal pay plus their secret squirrel allowance.

 

[Navy_Blue]

We did an Ex with the JTF and they said they get spec 2??  Must not want to tell us about secret squirrel pay.  I though when you re muster to JTF you get a new MOC?? Even there support element.  They told us you effectively go to LS/CPL rank as soon as you sign over if your a private.  We had a little requiting brief in the main cave.