C3 Howitzer Replacement

[Kirkhill]

83,303 convertible CRV-7 rounds currently being divested.​

Guided version[edit]​

In 2006 Bristol started testing a new version of the CRV7, the CRV7-PG. The weapon was introduced at Eurosatory 2006.[16] Bristol's current owners, Magellan Aerospace, offered it for sale starting in 2007.

The PG version, for "precision guided", adds a seeker developed by Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace to the front of any version of an otherwise unmodified CRV7. The seeker uses a simple inertial guidance system through the midcourse, and homes during the terminal approach using a laser designator. Other versions offer anti-radiation seeking, or GPS guidance. The precision guided kit includes the addition of tail fins and an in-flight control system. Combining the laser seeker with the FAT warhead produces a capable long-range anti-tank missile that is faster and much less expensive than traditional platforms like the AGM-114 Hellfire.

A version of the CRV7-PG was also developed for special forces use, fired from a single tube mounted on a 6 x 6. In use, the weapon would be driven into the field and fired from behind cover, aiming at a designated location from a forward team.[17]

1. Milan Machala & Radek Doskocil , "Contemporary Trends in Development and Modernization of Rocket Systems" Archived 2011-07-21 at the Wayback Machine

CRV7 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And of course there is a Canadian carriage prototyped and tested.

Mission Master Unmanned Ground Vehicle, Germany

The Mission Master unmanned ground vehicle is produced by Rheinmetall to support multiple mission requirements of troops in difficult terrain conditions.

www.army-technology.com

The vehicle has a length of 2.95m and a base weight of approximately 750kg. Its modular design allows for carriage of 600kg easy-to-install payloads for operations on land, while its payload carrying capacity is reduced to 300kg during amphibious operations.

LG1 has a mass of 1520 kg without ammunition
C3 has a mass of 2400 kg without ammunition

And Arnold also produces this 23 round package

Specifications
Production history
Service history
AGR-20 (APKWS II)
1)top picture: standard Hydra-70 2)bottom picture: APKWS
Type	Rocket
Place of origin	United States
In service	2012-present
Used by	See Future and potential users
Manufacturer	BAE Systems
Unit cost	$22,000[1]
No. built	50,000[2]
Mass	32 lb (15 kg)[3]
Length	73.8 in (1.87 m)[3]
Diameter	2.75 in (70 mm) (unfired)[4]
Muzzle velocity	1,000 m/s (3,600 km/h; 2,200 mph; Mach 2.9) at max[4]
Effective firing range	1,100–5,000 m (0.68–3.11 mi) (rotary wing); 2–11 km (1.2–6.8 mi) (fixed wing)[5][3]
Maximum speed	2,425 ft/s (739 m/s)[6]
Guidance system	Distributed Aperture Semi-Active Laser Seeker
Launch platform	See Launch platforms

The AGR-20 Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS) is a design conversion of Hydra 70 unguided rockets with a laser guidance kit to turn them into precision-guided munitions (PGMs).[7] APKWS is approximately one-third the cost and one-third the weight of the current inventory of laser-guided weapons, has a lower yield more suitable for avoiding collateral damage, and takes one quarter of the time for ordnance personnel to load and unload.

 

[NavyShooter]

My suggestion is get the HIMARS and use the 70mm rockets as a subcaliber training system.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sigh if only we could just join in with the buy

BAE Systems receives order for more M109A7 artillery

BAE Systems has received a $299m contract from the U.S. Army for the production of 40 sets of M109A7 Self-Propelled Howitzers.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Interesting look at the HIMARS system

https://twitter.com/x/status/1552723519087198208

 

[AmmoTech90]

Interesting look at the HIMARS system

https://twitter.com/x/status/1552723519087198208

The slapper det was always fun to teach to Brits...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1552723880699170818

 

[Kat Stevens]

The slapper det was always fun to teach to Brits...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1552723880699170818

I can't imagine too many Brits being able say "slapper det" with a straight face.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The slapper det was always fun to teach to Brits...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1552723880699170818

11pm, any pub, UK

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not sure if this has already been posted but a good review on the issues we have brought up.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Looks like we are going to see how the 105mm fares on the modern battlefield

https://twitter.com/x/status/1555540214105489411

 

[Kirkhill]

Looks like we are going to see how the 105mm fares on the modern battlefield

https://twitter.com/x/status/1555540214105489411

The Ukrainians are also using mortars to effect. Not much difference between a 120mm mortar bomb and a 105mm howitzer shell is there?

 

[McG]

The Ukrainians are also using mortars to effect. Not much difference between a 120mm mortar bomb and a 105mm howitzer shell is there?

I understand the 120 mm mortar round is closer to 155 mm arty for volume of high explosive.

 

[Kirkhill]

Spain seems to have seen enough. Swapping out its M109A5s for Caesars.

Spain wants to give up M109A5 howitzers and purchase CAESAR self-propelled artillery units

The Spanish army is ready to buy French howitzers CAESAR instead of self-propelled artillery units M109A5.

gagadget.com

The Spanish Army now has 95 howitzers in service M109A5. The military is ready to replace them with CAESAR due to the better range and higher mobility of French self-propelled artillery units on wheeled chassis.

The Czechs, the Lithuanians, Denmark and Belgium have also bought the Caesar

Denmark Orders 4 additional CAESAR 8x8 - EDR Magazine

Satory, October the 28th, 2019 – Nexter, a KNDS company, European leader in land defense, announces the signing by the

www.edrmagazine.eu

The Danes are using a Tatra 815 8x8 as a carrier vehicle.

 

[FJAG]

Looks like we are going to see how the 105mm fares on the modern battlefield

https://twitter.com/x/status/1555540214105489411

If they're looking for mass of fire, S Korea has over 2,000 towed M101 105 mm howitzers and almost a thousand towed M114 155s which are mostly in storage or allocated to the reserves. Venerable kit that's super easy to maintain and use.

 

[Kirkhill]

Spain seems to have seen enough. Swapping out its M109A5s for Caesars.

Spain wants to give up M109A5 howitzers and purchase CAESAR self-propelled artillery units

The Spanish army is ready to buy French howitzers CAESAR instead of self-propelled artillery units M109A5.

gagadget.com

The Spanish Army now has 95 howitzers in service M109A5. The military is ready to replace them with CAESAR due to the better range and higher mobility of French self-propelled artillery units on wheeled chassis.

 

[Kirkhill]

I understand the 120 mm mortar round is closer to 155 mm arty for volume of high explosive.

Thanks -

Nammo 155mm - 9 kg TNT to 24 km
Nammo 120mm - 2 kg TNT to 8 km
Nammo 81mm - 0.7 kg TNT to 5 km

GDOTS-C 105mm M1 - 2.1 kg TNT to 11 km

155 mm High Explosive - Nammo

www.nammo.com

120 mm Mortar High Explosive Round - Nammo

www.nammo.com

81 mm Mortar High Explosive Round - Nammo

www.nammo.com

105mm Artillery Ammunition | General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems - Canada

www.gd-otscanada.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Couple of neat M119/L119 videos

Fire drill contest

Rate of fire test.

 

[FJAG]

I understand the 120 mm mortar round is closer to 155 mm arty for volume of high explosive.

@Kirkhill has already answered that. Remember that a 120mm shell weighs around 30 lbs and the 155mm around 93 lbs (they vary by type of projectile but that's close enough for government work.) So it's not only three times the weight of Composite B but also three times the weight of metal splinters that are created by each round.

Spain seems to have seen enough. Swapping out its M109A5s for Caesars.

Spain wants to give up M109A5 howitzers and purchase CAESAR self-propelled artillery units

The Spanish army is ready to buy French howitzers CAESAR instead of self-propelled artillery units M109A5.

gagadget.com

At first I said: "what happened? Did Spain hire Hillier to advise them about artillery?" And then I remembered that when Hillier trashed our M109s he replaced them with ... nothing at all.

Spain has four mechanized brigades with some 327 Leopard 2 A6 and A4 tanks and 261 Pizzaro IFVs plus a whole bunch of other mech stuff that the M109s currently support.

I presume that the French, phasing out their old AMX AuF1s is probably influencing a lot of folks and Europe really doesn't have a tracked 155mm in production anymore.

Range is definitely an issue. The M109A5 (and even the current M109A7) has a 155/39 calibre barrel while the Caesar has a 155L52 calibre barrel so definitely more range. However, the A7 is in the process of being upgraded to a 155L58 calibre barrel. The US XM1113 RAP round can already equal the Caesar with the M109A7's L39 barrel. The L58 barrel will make that 70kms. One issue is that the A5 version uses a different chassis than the A7 so the upgrade path is stalled there.

IMHO, equally important to range is the issue of mobility and protection while in action. No matter which way that you slice it, Caesar's crew is standing out in the open while serving the gun which makes them highly vulnerable to CB fire. No matter which way you slice it it's a heavy wheeled truck which does not have the cross country mobility of the tanks and IFV it needs to support. If any of you have ever driven a truck through a plowed field, snow, muddy tracks or even light woods, then you know the advantage that tracks can give.

My understanding a Caesar comes in at around US$7.5 million in 2021 so there isn't any real cost saving from the M109. At around 25 tonnes its not much lighter than an M109 either.

On top of that, I'm not a GIAT/Nexter fan.

 

[Kirkhill]

How's about an Archer on whatever we end up with in the HLVW field? A MAN perhaps?

 

[FJAG]

How's about an Archer on whatever we end up with in the HLVW field? A MAN perhaps?

Maybe its my years with an M109 battery that colour my views in favour of tracked SPs for armoured brigades, but I simply see no advantage coming with a wheeled chassis. Tracks give good mobility and the tracked chassis also gives stability when firing. I certainly prefer the Archer to the Caesar but I've already commented on its limitations: on board ammo storage and a vulnerable rearming system. The M109 and M992 support vehicle is a pretty good operational set. I feel quite positive about the K9/K10 set as well.

What particulalry impresses me about the M109A7 is that its under a pretty aggressive upgrade path. Let's face it, this is a seventy year old concept that has been proven and upgraded from the track shoe up to meet the times continuously. It's built in bulk and has continuous access to parts. I prefer being part of an owners' group of thousands of vehicles rather than a couple of hundred or even dozens.

I don't mind a wheeled chassis as much when its supporting a wheeled force but then again I'd be looking for something on a chassis compatible with the supported arm's fleet. What would really interest me is something like the Kraus-Maffei Artillery Gun Module especially if it could be fit on a LAV chassis. Stability without stabilizers is a big problem. I'd love something like a standard AGM fitted to a common tracked chassis for an armour brigade and a common wheeled chassis for a LAV brigade. Don't expect I'll ever see it though.

 

[Kirkhill]

M109A5 56 km/h 350 km
M109A7 61 km/h 300 km
PzH2000 45 km/h off road
PzH2000 67 km/h on road 420 km
Man HX 8x8 100 km/h on road 483 km

Twice the speed and 40% more range on a single fillup.

And if you are fighting in a region like Europe, with well developed road networks, and shoot and scoot tactics, how much time are you going to spend in muddy fields or crashing through bocage. Do you even need to set up your guns in battery? Or can you engage the enemy from 6 individual guns in parking lots and lay-bys firing MRSI missions
with GPS and UAVs?