C3 Howitzer Replacement

[daftandbarmy]

Again, the joys of reunification and "Purple" trades.

I recall sending some NCOs from Depot PARA to help run the Army Catering Corps' recruits through the assault course, and some other similar stuff, in Aldershot as part of their basic training. I went along to watch and they didn't hold back. These guys were all put through the full 'experience' and they all did really well.

The next year I was in NI at one of the more remote permanent OP locations near the Irish border, which were basically deeply dug in bunkers protecting a high observation tower, surrounded by barbed wire & GPMGs on fixed lines. Right out of WW1.

The soldier who marshalled our Lynx escorted us up to the OP, rifle in the shoulder, helmet on, and we went inside. 20 minutes later, the same soldier served us lunch. He was an ACC private who ordered and managed all the food for 20 troops, and did all the cooking. He also was on the watchkeeper's list, and did the occasional stag behind the gun.

That was a great example of the right kind of all arms collaboration IMHO.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Less effective in that they are spending time that should be used for their primary function learning to do tasks that they are unlikely to need 99% of the time.

I shall sum it up as simply as possible. Not knowing how to do a techs job will not get you killed. It might not make you useful but it won’t get you killed. Not knowing how to properly defend yourself will get you killed. It also makes you a liability to those around you as they now need to put extra effort into defending you.

Ukraine is showing that the frontlines can be more a suggestion than a definitive. Modern warfare isn’t always against some illiterate tribesman armed with castaway Soviet tech.

Keep in mind no one on here is suggesting lessening the trades training simply stating the importance of being combat capable. I hope no one ever has to use those skills again. But its better to prepare them for it and have them ready if they ever need it than not and have them die or need to figure it out on the fly.

 

[FJAG]

This was a bit unusual, but not that much. There was a lot of blind eye turning higher up the chain, and not that high. Oh, and no accumulation authorized in those days. There was a later attempt to fix it, but the damage had been done. Now, no HHTs or moving grants or whatever, very, very slow promotions in gunner land that lasted five years or more, and one grieved for the screwing our troops were getting. Somehow, they stuck it out and excelled i[n the field.

Actually @Old Sweat they did accumulate. Much to my pleasant surprise, when I pulled the pin in August of 1981 I ended up with enough accumulated leave to leave me on terminal leave until April of 82 when I was hired on Class B for four months to run HQ Coy MTC Dundurn. Basically my first year of law school I was on full salary. The regimental clerks kept good records. I think the accumulation issues came some time after '81.

 

[GR66]

I recall sending some NCOs from Depot PARA to help run the Army Catering Corps' recruits through the assault course, and some other similar stuff, in Aldershot as part of their basic training. I went along to watch and they didn't hold back. These guys were all put through the full 'experience' and they all did really well.

The next year I was in NI at one of the more remote permanent OP locations near the Irish border, which were basically deeply dug in bunkers protecting a high observation tower, surrounded by barbed wire & GPMGs on fixed lines. Right out of WW1.

The soldier who marshalled our Lynx escorted us up to the OP, rifle in the shoulder, helmet on, and we went inside. 20 minutes later, the same soldier served us lunch. He was an ACC private who ordered and managed all the food for 20 troops, and did all the cooking. He also was on the watchkeeper's list, and did the occasional stag behind the gun.

That was a great example of the right kind of all arms collaboration IMHO.

I think the highlighted words are key here. Absolutely I agree that anyone in green that could be deployed in the line of fire should be properly trained to participate in combat. Does an RCN Human Resources Administrator need to know how to dig a shell scrape though? I'd argue no unless you have a system (like we do) that artificially treats all HRAs as combined Army/RCN/RCAF HRAs.

I think that's the point that @Furniture is trying to make. Like he says, of his trade only 30 of 240 total positions are posted to Army units. So that begs the question as to whether the advantages of common training for everyone in that trade to a single standard (including BMQ-L) gains more efficiencies overall over giving them all the same core trades training and only giving those in Army DEUs the additional combat training.

In comparison, do Royal Navy Supply Chain Logisticians go through the British equivalent of BMQ-L? I'm not convinced that providing common trades training to members of all Elements necessarily needs to translate to IDENTICAL training for all Elements within that trade.

 

[childs56]

I wonder if we moved to a 4-6 week Basic Training, teach how to march, shoot a rifle, throw hand grenade. Then move onto the phase where you do further training. If your Cbt Arms you do an additional 6 weeks of Field training such as the support Weapons, how to dig a defensive etc. Similar to BMQ Land SQ what ever they called it.
If your a Tradesperson you will move onto your trade training right away. Incorporate a week break from trades training every couple months and teach how to use support weapons field craft etc. Breaks it up. keeps people interested and meets the qualifications required. Then they are not behind when showing up to the units.
The Navy and Airforce can move on to their own training process for Air element/ sea environment.

It wont be perfect but if you can break the training down into shorter blocks and spread it out we might be able to encourage more people to want to join.

 

[Old Sweat]

Actually @Old Sweat they did accumulate. Much to my pleasant surprise, when I pulled the pin in August of 1981 I ended up with enough accumulated leave to leave me on terminal leave until April of 82 when I was hired on Class B for four months to run HQ Coy MTC Dundurn. Basically my first year of law school I was on full salary. The regimental clerks kept good records. I think the accumulation issues came some time after '81.

FJAG, you are correct, but accumulation of leave came a bit later down the pike.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I think the highlighted words are key here. Absolutely I agree that anyone in green that could be deployed in the line of fire should be properly trained to participate in combat. Does an RCN Human Resources Administrator need to know how to dig a shell scrape though? I'd argue no unless you have a system (like we do) that artificially treats all HRAs as combined Army/RCN/RCAF HRAs.

I think that's the point that @Furniture is trying to make. Like he says, of his trade only 30 of 240 total positions are posted to Army units. So that begs the question as to whether the advantages of common training for everyone in that trade to a single standard (including BMQ-L) gains more efficiencies overall over giving them all the same core trades training and only giving those in Army DEUs the additional combat training.

In comparison, do Royal Navy Supply Chain Logisticians go through the British equivalent of BMQ-L? I'm not convinced that providing common trades training to members of all Elements necessarily needs to translate to IDENTICAL training for all Elements within that trade.

Theres a distinct difference though between the British Navy, Army, and Airforce though. They are all separate organizations doing their own separate things. There isn’t with our Navy, Army, and Airforce in that it is all the CAF. There is no RCN only HRA, only a HRA in RCN deus. That HRA can be posted anywhere in Canada from a Army unit to a Naval ship to a Airbase. I have met plenty of different support trades where they have never served where their distinctive uniform is from (example, Airforce supply tech that had only been posted to Army bases).

Unless we choose to break apart the purple trades and treat them as truly one element only, it makes sense to provide them with as much elemental training as possible. Not to mention in a real war situation with casualties being taken we will likely have to start pulling from across the CAF to make up for the gaps that start appearing.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Again, the joys of reunification and "Purple" trades.

This is fixable. We just have to have the want to dismantle the largest corps in the CAF, Logistics. That's the key, the rest will follow.

Theres a distinct difference though between the British Navy, Army, and Airforce though. They are all separate organizations doing their own separate things. There isn’t with our Navy, Army, and Airforce in that it is all the CAF. There is no RCN only HRA, only a HRA in RCN deus. That HRA can be posted anywhere in Canada from a Army unit to a Naval ship to a Airbase. I have met plenty of different support trades where they have never served where their distinctive uniform is from (example, Airforce supply tech that had only been posted to Army bases).

Unless we choose to break apart the purple trades and treat them as truly one element only, it makes sense to provide them with as much elemental training as possible. Not to mention in a real war situation with casualties being taken we will likely have to start pulling from across the CAF to make up for the gaps that start appearing.

There is no need for an initial BMQ-L or what ever you want to call it for anyone who isn't being posted to field unit. The idea that there is makes a much sense as making all Log folks to NETP because they might go to sea.

Army crap isn't hard, and can be picked up pretty fast. There is a reason its called INFANTry. I spent a year of my life holding down a pick nick table in Pet and I could have been taught what I needed in 2 months. And yes like @Furniture I was sent to the PDC where I needed some Army "skills". What you need know to be an effective member of a duty watch or damage control team is much more demanding.

Not everyone is a rifleman, not everyone needs to be a rifleman.

 

[Kirkhill]

This is fixable. We just have to have the want to dismantle the largest corps in the CAF, Logistics. That's the key, the rest will follow.



There is no need for an initial BMQ-L or what ever you want to call it for anyone who isn't being posted to field unit. The idea that there is makes a much sense as making all Log folks to NETP because they might go to sea.

Army crap isn't hard, and can be picked up pretty fast. There is a reason its called INFANTry. I spent a year of my life holding down a pick nick table in Pet and I could have been taught what I needed in 2 months. And yes like @Furniture I was sent to the PDC where I needed some Army "skills". What you need know to be an effective member of a duty watch or damage control team is much more demanding.

Not everyone is a rifleman, not everyone needs to be a rifleman.

You're going to get fanmail

I'm going to put fuel on the fire.

How many of the Purple trades require uniformed personel at all? If any group of trades could be transferred to the civilian world they would likely be found in this space.

And Army Reserves and Infantry Rifles are a good match.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Army crap isn't hard, and can be picked up pretty fast. There is a reason its called INFANTry.

If Infantry is so easy, why did it take a year to prepare already trained Infantry soldiers to deploy to a low intensity conflict like AFG? <CAF politics I'm looking at you>

 

[Halifax Tar]

You're going to get fanmail

I'm going to put fuel on the fire.

How many of the Purple trades require uniformed personel at all? If any group of trades could be transferred to the civilian world they would likely be found in this space.

And Army Reserves and Infantry Rifles are a good match.

I like fan mail. Army folks, especially Combat Arms, tend to have sensitive Egos I used to love turning them into pretzels on the pitch and then having them come into clothing stores, being beaten by a Loggie was the ultimate insult. I used to play rugby with Falklands War vet. Big English Prop, I was still playing 9 at the time. Anyways he would kiss the big macho guys in rucks and mauls. Sent them right over the edge, I learned alot from him lol

I would propose almost all of the Log positions 3rd line and back could be made civilian. A lot of the second line as well and obviously first line needs to be uniformed. I would also end civilian intake for Log Officer production.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If Infantry is so easy, why did it take a year to prepare already trained Infantry soldiers to deploy to a low intensity conflict like AFG? <CAF politics I'm looking at you>

Because the Army (CAF) couldn't organize a __ __ in a __________.

We tend to do everything at the slow march. Processes must be protected old boy

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If Infantry is so easy, why did it take a year to prepare already trained Infantry soldiers to deploy to a low intensity conflict like AFG?

Do you really want an answer?

Hint- it has nothing to do with basic infantry skills and everything to do with a risk adverse chain of command who would rather do training theatre than actually keep soldiers trained throughout their careers…

 

[dapaterson]

If Infantry is so easy, why did it take a year to prepare already trained Infantry soldiers to deploy to a low intensity conflict like AFG? <CAF politics I'm looking at you>

The CAF is skilled at cramming two days of training into a week or more

 

[markppcli]

I like fan mail. Army folks, especially Combat Arms, tend to have sensitive Egos I used to love turning them into pretzels on the pitch and then having them come into clothing stores, being beaten by a Loggie was the ultimate insult. I used to play rugby with Falklands War vet. Big English Prop, I was still playing 9 at the time. Anyways he would kiss the big macho guys in rucks and mauls. Sent them right over the edge, I learned alot from him lol

I would propose almost all of the Log positions 3rd line and back could be made civilian. A lot of the second line as well and obviously first line needs to be uniformed. I would also end civilian intake for Log Officer production.

Bold for a 9 to accuse anyone else of an ego. Although you do seem to have the interpersonal skills I usually associate with the position.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Bold for a 9 to accuse anyone else of an ego. Although you do seem to have the interpersonal skills I usually associate with the position.

I grew up and now I play 3

Thanks for reinforcing my point though

 

[markppcli]

I grew up and now I play 3

Thanks for reinforcing my point though

Hey man, I get it, no one’s ever seen you tackle so you have to tell us all about it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Hey man, I get it, no one’s ever seen you tackle so you have to tell us all about it.

Who are you kidding I don't tackle anymore lol I have to work on Monday! OBs for life lol.

I more enjoy the little chats with the opposition at the bottom of a ruck, and the post match songs and pints.

 

[GR66]

Theres a distinct difference though between the British Navy, Army, and Airforce though. They are all separate organizations doing their own separate things. There isn’t with our Navy, Army, and Airforce in that it is all the CAF. There is no RCN only HRA, only a HRA in RCN deus. That HRA can be posted anywhere in Canada from a Army unit to a Naval ship to a Airbase. I have met plenty of different support trades where they have never served where their distinctive uniform is from (example, Airforce supply tech that had only been posted to Army bases).

Unless we choose to break apart the purple trades and treat them as truly one element only, it makes sense to provide them with as much elemental training as possible. Not to mention in a real war situation with casualties being taken we will likely have to start pulling from across the CAF to make up for the gaps that start appearing.

You don't necessarily have to break apart the purple trades but maybe de-link the trade from the element. We have no problem with recruits picking which element they want to stay with when they join a "hard" element trade (Infantry, Bosun, AESO, etc.). An Infanteer isn't going to be suddenly posted to HMCS Montreal or 407 LRP Squadron outside their element. Couldn't someone recruited as an RCN Fin Svcs Administrator stick with RCN postings unless they choose to change Elements?

CA, RCN and RCAF Fin Svcs Administrators could all still receive their identical trades training from the Log Branch so that systems are standardized and there isn't duplication of training effort, but the CA FSAs would do BMQ-L, the RCN FSAs would do NETP and the RCAF FSA's would get a Hotels.com login.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You don't necessarily have to break apart the purple trades but maybe de-link the trade from the element. We have no problem with recruits picking which element they want to stay with when they join a "hard" element trade (Infantry, Bosun, AESO, etc.). An Infanteer isn't going to be suddenly posted to HMCS Montreal or 407 LRP Squadron outside their element. Couldn't someone recruited as an RCN Fin Svcs Administrator stick with RCN postings unless they choose to change Elements?

CA, RCN and RCAF Fin Svcs Administrators could all still receive their identical trades training from the Log Branch so that systems are standardized and there isn't duplication of training effort, but the CA FSAs would do BMQ-L, the RCN FSAs would do NETP and the RCAF FSA's would get a Hotels.com login.

I think what you've said could work.

The career and succession management side of things needs to be worked out as well.