C3 Howitzer Replacement

[Kirkhill]

Read the data sheet in your link yes? You want an 84 gunner to also hump a full size laser designator ?

I know it’s cool and new; but I’ve tried explaining this exhaustively. Laser designation requires a bunch of things in order to make sure everything is going to work when employing a PGM. Not the least of which is the laser and weapon being on the read pulse repition frequency. It’s not like in Transformers when the guy point a paq 4 at the bad robot and the bomb flies to his IR point. You need to be set up, stable, coded, and high enough to not create under spill. All of which makes it unusable at a section level. If you want information I suggest the JPUB 3-09.3 V-33.

Cool and new....

Or at the exploitable edge of possibility?

Saab and Raytheon are cooperating on an 84mm guided projectile - SAL guided

The M4 loses weight which allows for an MLD of 0.8 kg to be mounted.

For guiding the missile different solutions can be adopted. It is possible to install on the Carl-Gustaf or the AT4 a lightweight designator, i.e. the MLD Mini by L3 Harris with maximum energy output of 80 mJ weighs only 800 grams, or the GMM can be fired from its launcher on a target designated by a third party. “The GMM can be used in two modes, LOBL (Lock-On-Before-Launch) and LOAL (Lock-On-After-Launch),” Ty Blanchard explains. This provides considerable flexibility, allowing the soldier to launch the round from a protected site, without the need to expose himself to the enemy to illuminate the target after having unveiled his position when shooting, as the guidance can be carried out by somebody else who remained undetected.

Saab and Raytheon detail their Guided Multipurpose Munition - EDR Magazine

By Paolo Valpolini When in October 2014 Saab unveiled its Carl-Gustaf M4, the latest and lightest iteration of its well-known

www.edrmagazine.eu

The CG84 may end up being the most versatile, and key, element in the tool kit.

 

[KevinB]

Cool and new....

Or at the exploitable edge of possibility?

Saab and Raytheon are cooperating on an 84mm guided projectile - SAL guided

The M4 loses weight which allows for an MLD of 0.8 kg to be mounted.

Saab and Raytheon detail their Guided Multipurpose Munition - EDR Magazine

By Paolo Valpolini When in October 2014 Saab unveiled its Carl-Gustaf M4, the latest and lightest iteration of its well-known

www.edrmagazine.eu

The CG84 may end up being the most versatile, and key, element in the tool kit.

Still requires the user to guide for the flight time. That user is exposed.

As opposed to Fire and Forget systems that allow the user to either relocate or reload and reengage a new target.

 

[ArmyRick]

I’d say that you should ignore the NLAW

Retain the Carl G, but in the M4 variant.
It’s good for anti structure usage as well as can be used as an anti armor system in a pinch, especially with a modern FCS

Acquire Javelin with LW CLU
Acquire Spike NLOS

@GR66 is correct in his understanding of the seeker method on modern F&F MMW missiles.
But none of those are really Arty systems (I would put Spike NLOS with the Bde Recce/CAV)

I really don’t see any great options for the C3 replacement until the CAF decides on how it wants its formations.
I think @FJAG has made some good points about restructuring and what equipment makes sense there.

Some quick questions about Spike NLOS.
1. What is its effective range?
2. Can they be mounted or operated in a cluster (mini-MLRS)?

 

[markppcli]

Cool and new....

Or at the exploitable edge of possibility?

Saab and Raytheon are cooperating on an 84mm guided projectile - SAL guided

The M4 loses weight which allows for an MLD of 0.8 kg to be mounted.

Saab and Raytheon detail their Guided Multipurpose Munition - EDR Magazine

By Paolo Valpolini When in October 2014 Saab unveiled its Carl-Gustaf M4, the latest and lightest iteration of its well-known

www.edrmagazine.eu

The CG84 may end up being the most versatile, and key, element in the tool kit.

LOAL vs LOBL still requires coding to match PRF. Firing from a third party requires laser angles to be monitored or maintained. I’ve said this before, I’ve explained it before, I’ve given you a source explaining how this works. I don’t know what else I can say to explain this.

 

[dapaterson]

Some quick questions about Spike NLOS.
1. What is its effective range?
2. Can they be mounted or operated in a cluster (mini-MLRS)?

According to Wikipedia, new model Spike has a range of up to 25,000m. Not something you'd fire like a MLRS, but helicopter mounts can carry four missiles.

Spike (missile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kirkhill]

LOAL vs LOBL still requires coding to match PRF. Firing from a third party requires laser angles to be monitored or maintained. I’ve said this before, I’ve explained it before, I’ve given you a source explaining how this works. I don’t know what else I can say to explain this.

I accept that everything that you say is true. I accept that that there are procedures required, that people need to be trained, that actions have to be co-ordinated.

I could even accept that not all CG-84s are going to have MLDs. Perhaps they won't all have even FCS systems.

But suppose we were to continue with the DFSW platoon as the "infantillery" experts? Or even took note of the USMCs experiments with their larger sections where the Assistant Squad Leader focuses on co-ordinating support while the Systems Operator manages radios and UAVs? With every Squad manning their own CG84.

I guess what I am suggesting is that the CG84 moves up the scale from a simple infanteer's anti-tank weapon to a gunner's man portable fire support cannon. Maybe it needs the same training regime as the mortars.

Maybe the rifle sections just get the AT4s and the NLAWs or even just the simple M4 without the bells and whistles.

Honestly, you are right and I know nothing of the details. But looking at what is on offer technically I can't stop myself wondering how all the bits and pieces might be put together differently.

Cheers.

 

[Kirkhill]

According to Wikipedia, new model Spike has a range of up to 25,000m. Not something you'd fire like a MLRS, but helicopter mounts can carry four missiles.

Spike (missile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More on the same subject

Exactor (Spike NLOS) - Think Defence

SPIKE NLOS, is an electro-optically guided missile with a range of up to 25km in service with the British Army, designated EXACTOR

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

For the Barrage/Salvo effect I think the Brits are leaning towards an upgraded Brimstone

New British Brimstone 2 Missiles Are Bad News For Russian Tanks, Artillery, Air Defense And Command Posts

The U.K. has been supplying Ukraine with Brimstone missiles since April. New imagery from Ukraine shows they are receiving not just the older Brimstone 1 version but the new and vastly more capable Brimstone 2.

www.forbes.com

Brimstone Anti-Tank Guided Missile | Military-Today.com

The Brimstone is an air-launched anti-tank missile produced in the United Kingdom. It was developed from the US-made AGM-114 Hellfire, but tailored especially for use by fixed-wing aircraft.

www.military-today.com

Rheinmetall Unveils Brimstone Missile-Equipped Boxer Vehicle

Rheinmetall BAE Systems Ltd has unveiled its Brimstone missile-equipped Boxer vehicle concept demonstrator for the British Army.

www.thedefensepost.com

That would give 8x 40 km Fire and Forget MMW missiles that could be salvoed from one vehicle - they can also be guided by a laser designator.

 

[childs56]

I accept that everything that you say is true. I accept that that there are procedures required, that people need to be trained, that actions have to be co-ordinated.

I could even accept that not all CG-84s are going to have MLDs. Perhaps they won't all have even FCS systems.

But suppose we were to continue with the DFSW platoon as the "infantillery" experts? Or even took note of the USMCs experiments with their larger sections where the Assistant Squad Leader focuses on co-ordinating support while the Systems Operator manages radios and UAVs? With every Squad manning their own CG84.

I guess what I am suggesting is that the CG84 moves up the scale from a simple infanteer's anti-tank weapon to a gunner's man portable fire support cannon. Maybe it needs the same training regime as the mortars.

Maybe the rifle sections just get the AT4s and the NLAWs or even just the simple M4 without the bells and whistles.

Honestly, you are right and I know nothing of the details. But looking at what is on offer technically I can't stop myself wondering how all the bits and pieces might be put together differently.

Cheers.

Two many people I find are stuck in the we don't have it or we don't train like this attitude so it can not and will not work. Yet we are seeing the Ukraine Army pull off some pretty good redneck soldiering to get the job done.
I mean how did Ukraine designate targets for the Copper head rounds they used? Magic I guess not possible to carry all that gear around and use it effectively.
How does an Dismounted Artillery Observation Post carry all that laser range finding designator gear with them. Two feet and a heart beat. How do they lase designate targets, how to they range find targets? Hide very well and use their gadgets.
We still have lots of designate ordnance around that is effective. I am pretty sure Saab and Raytheon would not of and be putting money into a system if it did not and can not work.

You are asking some great questions and stirring some even better response. We need to think outside of the box on much of what we do day to day.

 

[FJAG]

How does an Dismounted Artillery Observation Post carry all that laser range finding designator gear with them. Two feet and a heart beat. How do they lase designate targets, how to they range find targets? Hide very well and use their gadgets.

It's actually not that hard. Lightweight laser designators these days come in at a little over 5 lbs or so. Range finding can be done with vector binoculars. Add in a little PLGR for GPS connectivity and an AN/PRC 117 set and Bob's your uncle. I come from the map, prismatic compass, grease pencil and a 509 set crowd. (yes I'm that old - don't get me started on the puttee issue in another thread) I'm dead jealous of the gear modern FOOs have even when they get away from their LAV OPV. Luxury.

 

[Kirkhill]

Fire Control Systems for the Canadian Army

The Canadian Army has awarded Aimpoint a contract to deliver an unspecified quantity of Aimpoint FCS13-RE Fire Control Systems (FCSs) and the TH-60 thermal sight systems.

euro-sd.com

Carl Gustaf M4 with MLD and Aimpoint FCS-13 would weigh (unloaded) in the range of 9 kg.
The M3 weighed 10 kg without attachments.
The M2, in its state of nature, weighed 14 kg.

M4/M3E1 with AimPoint FCS13RE Rangefinder, Ballistic Computer and Airburst Programmer

Mass	M2: 14.2 kg (31 lb)[6] M3: 10 kg (22 lb)[6] M4/M3E1: 6.6 kg (15 lb)

Aimpoint FCS 13 RE Ballistic Computer

Aimpoint® FCS Fire Control System - Dynamic Universal Reflex Sights - Aimpoint Global

The Aimpoint® FCS (Fire Control System) is a multi-weapon sight for use on crew served support weapons and vehicle mounted machine guns.

www.aimpoint.com

Predecessor Aimpoint FCS-12 weighed about 3.5 lbs or 1.6 kg

The Aimpoint FCS-12 is approximately seven inches long, 3.5 inches wide and 6 inches high, for an approximate weight of around 3.5 pounds; it is powered by a power pack that may hold up to six commercial-grade or reloadable 1.2V to 3.6V AA batteries, and may be used continuously for over four days with a fully charged ...Nov 12, 2013

Aimpoint FCS-12 - all4shooters.com​

L3 Harris MLD - 0.8 kg

 

[Spencer100]

Here somebody's in the western hemisphere is getting new guns...and surprise winner too

Colombia picks Elbit’s Atmos howitzer over Nexter’s Caesar

The decision came as a surprise for some observers who expected the contract to go to the Colombian Army’s preferred choice, the six-wheel drive Caesar.

www.defensenews.com

 

[FJAG]

Here somebody's in the western hemisphere is getting new guns...and surprise winner too

Colombia picks Elbit’s Atmos howitzer over Nexter’s Caesar

The decision came as a surprise for some observers who expected the contract to go to the Colombian Army’s preferred choice, the six-wheel drive Caesar.

www.defensenews.com

I like it when they quote the actual acquisition cost instead of the full up 40 year life cycle costs including the annual pay envelope for a regiment's worth of gunners (adjusted for inflation) and how much it will cost to have the guns cut up for scrap at the end.

 

[FJAG]

Interesting video of a Ukrainian M101 in action.

Judging by the salvage piles they've been there for a while and don't seem too concerned about UAVs or counter bombardment.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1613240422725464064

 

[Furniture]

Interesting video of a Ukrainian M101 in action.

Judging by the salvage piles they've been there for a while and don't seem to concerned about UAVs or counter bombardment.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1613240422725464064

I suspect the war in Ukraine is much like Afghanistan, and many other wars. Where you are, and when you were there makes a massive difference in how things go.

My time in Afghanistan with TF 1-07 D Bty meant I spent my time sleeping in a Hesco and sandbag bunker in Sperwan Ghar, or sleeping under a tarp hung from the side of my Bison while we bounced around Kandahar Province between Troops. Two rotos later they had hardened shacks at the FOBs, and flew around between locations in helos.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Interesting video of a Ukrainian M101 in action.

Judging by the salvage piles they've been there for a while and don't seem too concerned about UAVs or counter bombardment.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1613240422725464064

That video and pile of ammo is giving me a sentimental woody

 

[daftandbarmy]

That video and pile of ammo is giving me a sentimental woody

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That video and pile of ammo is giving me a sentimental woody

I once thought a hundred rounds of salvage behind a gun position made a big pile….

 

[AmmoTech90]

20 pallets a day they said they were firing. Don't know if that's for the until or for the gun.

 

[KevinB]

20 pallets a day they said they were firing. Don't know if that's for the until or for the gun.

Probably per gun, as most batteries were getting 30-50 HEMTT loads/day in some places.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm going to be naughty and double post.

I believe this is relevant to this discussion.

Russians running out. Ukrainian Counter Battery improving. Russian EW has some effect.

Interesting piece on the use of artillery and drones in Bakhmut.

The arty war continues to change. The Russians no longer have the same superiority in artillery. The Ukrainians can stay emplaced. The M777s gave the Ukrainians counter-battery superiority.

Civvy UAVs are a critical part of the battle. But so is Russian EW.

Ukrainian Artillery Crews In Fight For Bakhmut Engaged In Drone 'Electronic Warfare'

In the battle for the eastern city of Bakhmut, Ukrainian gunners are hitting Russian troops with Soviet-era Akatsiya artillery, coordinating their accuracy with multiple spotter drones, they say. Russians are countering with jamming and interference, say the Ukrainians at the controls.

www.rferl.org