Bush says response is "unacceptable"

[-rb]

48, Yukon, etc... I think you are missing my point. I am not saying who assumes control, once the disaster has passed. I am not saying some entities don't superced others in a jurisdictional hierarchy. I am not saying that every level of Government doesn't share the blame.

I am saying that a Mayor is responsible for their City. They may require assistance and/or coordination from higher levels of Government, but they have the responsibility. Same with the heads of County Government - they are responsible for the unicorporated areas of the County, and for certain things, the incorporated areas as well. And up it goes...

Let's say there's an infantry section going out on patrol. They may require certain forms of support from higher, but the Sect Comd is responsible for the Mission. The FAC is responsible for air support. The Wing Commander is responsible to have the birds in the air at the appropriate timing. If Rifleman Jones forgot the smoke grenades to mark targets, it is not the Combat Team Commander's fault, nor the Wing Commander's, nor the Company Comd, etc. The Soldier bears some responsibility, as does the Sect Comd. As does the Platoon Comd. Depending on the importance/scope of the patrol, the Bn Comd may have to bear some of the responsibility.

The lines of responsibility are clear in some cases, and not so clear in others. The whole system works (or not) however, based on projections, requests, and demands - passed up and down...

Muskrat, coming through loud and clear now and agree 100%, as stated thought it was in a slightly different vein.

cheers.

 

[muskrat89]

as alluded to by you originally muskrat

Thank you - every once in awhile you guys talk about something that I actually know something about... 

 

[Gunner]

I see the armchair commentators are all out in full force today.  :

Most of you should reread Muskrat's posts as he is closest to the truth.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Ive got so much mixed opinion on this topic, that I hardly know where to begin...So I'm not even going to throw crap at the fan anymore, it just might end up splattering all over my face.

 

[tomahawk6]

Needed another option : poor execution of the disaster plan by city officials. The disaster covers a three state area with the worst of it at New Orleans. When preparing to deploy help you have to keep them far enough away from ground zero so as to keep them from becoming casualties. The situation in New Orleans was complicated by the levee breaches which flooded the city. The city was essentially cut off. Helicopters could not fly until the winds died down Tues. As soon as they could fly the Coasties were up doing their thing. The city lost control [many police stopped working]. State officials failed to respond in a timely matter. Local and state officials have to be able to hold their own for 48 hours to allow the Federal government to marshall its resources.

 

[a_majoor]

Some other poll options that are missing:

Individuals ignoring warnings and staying in the disaster area; and

Idiotic decisions by local officials before the storm.

My absolute favorite image from the disaster now is the almost 400 city busses of New Orlean's transit service which are quietly underwater in the city parking lot, when they could have been pressed into service just prior to the hurricane in evacuating the who did not have cars.

Oh, right, President Bush should have been driving these busses....... :

 

[muskrat89]

Thanks Gunner - and I am FAR from a SME. I've just happened to work with several levels of Governement, on separate projects, on things that relate to Emergency Management in some capacity. Basically, I have a "working familiarity", I would say.

Tomahawk's comments reiterated mine, for the most part...

 

[IcEPiCk]

I agree...  How could all those buses not be an option?

They shouldve been used to transfer the people in the worst sitations (example: cannot afford transportation to begin with)...



However, let's not forget some of the people who stayed PROBABLY wouldve declined the free ticket to another state...

 

[LF(CMO)]

"I love that the most powerful and most technologically advanced military in the world...took 4 days to get their bums into New Orleans...Bush was probably choking on a pretzel or learning to tie his shoes...i guess thats a good enough excuse"

When you've spent some time in the real world, particularly in leadership postions, you will be less likely to make statements similar to the above.

 

[muskrat89]

Further to what I said before, and a_majoor repeated - from www.drudgereport.com:

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

 

[SemperFidelis]

"I love that the most powerful and most technologically advanced military in the world...took 4 days to get their bums into New Orleans...Bush was probably choking on a pretzel or learning to tie his shoes...i guess thats a good enough excuse"

When you've spent some time in the real world, particularly in leadership postions, you will be less likely to make statements similar to the above.

I concur, that was an immature thing to say...Ive spent way too much time in the real world though (for a 20 year old) , not in leadership positions however.  But I will def. admit...that was uncalled for. 

 

[squealiox]

Speaking strictly of New Orleans - it was the Mayor's responsibility to get that City evacuated before the storm. For him to cry foul now is silly.

not that silly.
here is the mission statement of the dept of homeland security:

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.  The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

 

[Springroll]

This would be a very good link for those interested in finding out exactly what the governments are doing to help those affected by Katrina: Hurricane Katrina: What Government Is Doing


edited for spelling

 

[muskrat89]

squeeliox - nice to see you arguing with people somewhere other than the political forum  :

If you have read this thread at all, I have said, acknowledged, and agreed with the Federal shortcomings in this disaster. I was merely pointing out that the Mayor has been very vocal in criticising the response, when he bears at least some of the responsibility.

A mayor or city or county manager, as a jurisdiction's
chief executive, is responsible for the public safety and
welfare of the people of that jurisdiction. The Local
Chief Executive Officer:
â-  Is responsible for coordinating local resources to
address the full spectrum of actions to prevent,
prepare for, respond to, and recover from incidents
involving all hazards including terrorism, natural
disasters, accidents, and other contingencies;

Kind of like me knowingly letting my 7-year old play with matches, and then complaining that the Fire Department took too long to get here....

Further, from the source that squeeliox cited:

Emphasis on Local Response

All incidents are handled at the lowest possible organizational and jurisdictional level. Police, fire, public health and medical, emergency management, and other personnel are responsible for incident management at the local level. For those events that rise to the level of an Incident of National Significance, the Department of Homeland Security provides operational and/or resource coordination for Federal support to on-scene incident command structures.

 

[Armymedic]

Needed another option : poor execution of the disaster plan by city officials.

Done. good point.

 

[LF(CMO)]

I concur, that was an immature thing to say...Ive spent way too much time in the real world though (for a 20 year old) , not in leadership positions however.   But I will def. admit...that was uncalled for.  

My statement was a bit harsh.  So I admire your willingness to accept that fact that things could have been phrased differently.  The up side of this is that the Americans (Canadians as well) will be better prepared to deal with a similar situation in the future.

BTW: We were no better prepared to deal with the Ice Storm of a few years ago.  It wasn't quite so life threatening as this thing is for a number of reasons.

 

[Edward Campbell]

As a general rule planning is always imperfect (and remember, please, that all generalizations are wrong, including this one) and the more detailed the plan the greater the number of things wrong with it â “ which ought to be intuitively obvious.

Planning for a disaster is inordinately complex.   In Canada and the USA there are competing jurisdictions â “ some, at any given time, in empire building mode.   (Anyone dealt with PSEPC lately?)   Command and control will be a problem â “ no amount of planning and prior coordination will solve that because the troublemakers (and they always exist) will not participate in the planning â “ they will pop up, with their special authority and special requirements, at just the worst moment â “ bureaucratic whack-a-mole will be the best course open, but it's hard to play when the 'mole' reports to the Deputy Prime Minister and has her thumb firmly on the chequebook.  

Many of the 'normal' planning principles and tools/techniques most familiar to soldiers are unavailable or of dubious value when dealing with disasters and politicians.

The insatiable demands of 24/7 live news creates new problems.   Having Wolf Blitzer and tout le gang interrupting (and being able to demand attention) and second-guessing (because they may have better comms than you do) cannot help. (I have no doubt that CNN etc did save lives â “ they brought people in distress to the attention of the Search & Rescue people; I am equally sure that they cost lives â “ by causing the SAR resources to be diverted from some other urgent task, one which did not, unfortunately, make it on to world-wide TV.)

Governments, including the military, tend towards narrow-mindedness or blinkered thinking: they are often ignorant of the capabilities of the private sector in areas like logistics.   When, for example, did FEMA call WalMart?   Why hasn't the private sector (big and small) been contracted to build â “ right now - refugee camps (dozens, even hundreds of H huts in each) in many of the lower 48 states?

Anyone involved with planning for the aftermath of the Vancouver earthquake or the terrorist bombings in downtown Ottawa?

 

[Armymedic]

Mr. Edward Campbell,
Eloquent and accurate.
Lessons learned should be a intresting read.



How much of a problem was the weekend? Warnings were given on Fri, storm hit Monday am, most people at Federal and State level would work Mon-Fri.

So did this have an effect as well?

 

[Gunner]

The Edmonton Journal ran an article by Marc Caputo who writes for the Knight Ridder chain of newspapers.   I can't seem to find an electronic version but here are some of the highlights of his article "Genesis of a demon": No sense of panic, little preparation as warnings issued by weather service.

25 Aug 05

- KATRINA unexpectedly hits Florida much harder than anticipated and moves into the Gulf of Mexico.
-National Hurricane Centre notes it moves west across warm Gulf water growing stronger (CAT 1 over Florida and now increasing in strength).

27 Aug 05

- KATRINA winds reach 185 km/hr sustained
- In Mississippi - Walmarts/Kmarts inundated with shoppers preparing themselves for KATRINA.   Emergency officials in Mississippi expressed urgency but they were slow to get people out.   They refrained from ordering mandatory evacuation until 6 am Sunday (28 Aug 05).
- In New Orleans, on the other hand, there were no sense of panic and little preparation.   Few homes were shuttered, fuel was abundant and whatever fear existed was tinged with bravado and ignorance.   Mayor Nagin encouraged people to leave but NO evacuation order was issued and many people stayed.
-   The director of the National Hurricane Centre personally phones Mayor Nagin and urged him to evacuate the city.

28 Aug 05

- Mayor Nagin realizes that KATRINA, now on the horizon of New Orleans, is going to be a problem. KATRINA has now grown to a CAT 5 storm with sustained winds of 281 km/h.   Residents realize that a "perfect storm" is coming and begin to flee the city.
-Mayor Nagin, lets entire morning slip away, and finally issues a mandatory evacuation notice (capping his speech with a "God Bless Us").
- Late afternoon rains begin, then winds, then much more wind...

29 Aug 05

- KATRINA touches down at 0400 hrs.
- In New Orleans, Mayor Nagin and his police command abandon city hall (no power and starting to sway) and move into Hyatt Regency hotel.  
- Relentless pounding of coast by KATRINA
- Hurricane passes, many believe they have survived.
- Worst yet to come with the breaching of the earthen levee system.   One broke early Monday morning but no one realized in the midst of the raging storm.

I'm not a Bush apologist but I hope all the armchair commentators can see all of the failures by the CITY Administration.   Was the State and Federal response slow?   Sure was but considering the magnitude of the devastation and the absolute failure by the front liine emergency management personnel (Mayor, city hall, police, etc) its not surprising. The hysterical comments by the Mayor in newsprint and radio interviews is indictive of:

a. someone who has lost control of the situation; and

b. someone looking for a scapegoat (unfortunately using race and poverty as a club).

Mayor Nagin was probably elected based on a racial popularity contest and the population of New Orleans is paying the price for not demanding excellence from their leader.   Canadian cities are no different, very few Mayors are able to rise to a challenge as it is against their political nature to "led" during a crisis after been accustomed to sending decisions to committee to build some form of consensus that is half baked vice what is required.  


FEMA was handed a shyte sandwich and told to take a bite...

 

[visitor]

This is a failing on many levels, beginning with the underfunding of intra-structure. But it is also a human failure.

Last year New Orleans was evacuated for a hurricane that never came and did not damage.  After "crying wolf", many  people simply did not take the evac order seriously this year.

Secondly, the woman governor tried to get the director of FEMA to understand the seriousness of the situation. Woman are traditionally not listened to and thought to be hysterical, etc.  (They do not get proper medical care b/c their concerns are not taken seriously).

We are all prone to relive these failures over and over again in future disasters,  unless they are addressed.