Bush says response is "unacceptable"

[Armymedic]

We have a saying. I am sure its not only a military saying as it does ring true:

Piss poor planning and preparation results in piss poor performance.

Otherwise known as doing a good recce, doing battle procedure, etc, etc....

So where has the US Gov't, the La Gov't and the City of New Orleans go wrong on this?



For the military responce, I think they are doing it as good as it can be done;
from warning order to arrival on scene was 2-3 days, about the same as it was for our troops from Petawawa to get into area east of Ottawa during the Ice Storm.

edit to add a link...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4211528.stm
Anyway your thoughts...

 

[bravo2]

:
For the military responce, I think they are doing it as good as it can be done;
from warning order to arrival on scene was 2-3 days, about the same as it was for our troops from Petawawa to get into area east of Ottawa during the Ice Storm.

edit to add a link...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4211528.stm
Anyway your thoughts...

Since Lt. Gen. Russel Honore took charge, things seems to be moving faster now !?

 

[Black Watch]

I wonder what would have happened if Katrina hitted Texas instead of Louisiana

 

[48Highlander]

I wonder what would have happened if Katrina hitted Texas instead of Louisiana

Well, for one thing, there'd be no flooding.

 

[Acorn]

One possible explanation is that FEMA was made subordinate to Homeland Security, and the bulk of the latter's budget goes to anti-terrorist stuff. FEMA has seen a reduction in resources.

 

[muskrat89]

Speaking strictly of New Orleans - it was the Mayor's responsibility to get that City evacuated before the storm. For him to cry foul now is silly.

I read somewhere that in all of the disaster scenarios planned for, and rehearsed for - one scenario that was never thought of was the levees actually breaching. All the scenarios had them over-flowing, but not breaching.

Too much reliance on cell phones, which failed due to towers being N/S

People not evacuating when being told to

There's plenty of blame to go around.....

 

[Strike]

People weren't evacuated because the means weren't made available to them.  Anyone who had a car was able to drive out.  However, in a state where the poverty is anything but invisible, there were no buses to take these people out.

There was also no curfew put into place BEFORE the storm hit.  This would have helped in the government and other agencies in having an organized evacuation.

When the "shoot to kill" policy came out wrt the looting, one cop stated that if he caught someone looting food and water he would look the other way.  Well done.

 

[Springroll]

Speaking strictly of New Orleans - it was the Mayor's responsibility to get that City evacuated before the storm. For him to cry foul now is silly.

If I recall correctly, he was on the news begging people to get the hell out of dodge. I feel he has full rights to complain because the rescue response has been pathetic. If we can gather teams, equipment and money as fast as we did for the tsunami victims, which was a half world away, then why can't we(North American Citizens) get this moving faster for people residing on our own continent?? Virginia is not that far away and there is a full Naval base there. What about the base in Florida??

Things could have(and should have) been moving faster than what they are right now.

JMO

 

[muskrat89]

In the flood pictures are lots full of school buses and other buses - all parked in enclosures and flooded. If he didn't have the means, it was up to him to do a better job in finding transportation. I'm not saying it is all his fault, just that part of the responsibility is his.

Springroll - let me rephrase - he has every right to complain, sure. As I said above, he needs to bear some of the responsibility himself. I do some of this stuff here in Arizona on a municipal, County, and State level - I do have some degree of understanding regarding how it is supposed to work, at least here in the US...

 

[Springroll]

Springroll - let me rephrase - he has every right to complain, sure. As I said above, he needs to bear some of the responsibility himself. I do some of this stuff here in Arizona on a municipal, County, and State level - I do have some degree of understanding regarding how it is supposed to work, at least here in the US...

I agree that he should bear some of the responsibility for those that were unable to leave. The closest I ever got to any US stuff when i was living down south was volunteering with the American Red Cross. Clostest level i got to was County...lol

Edited to add: About three years ago, the New York Times and the local papers in New Orleans did feature articles warning about this exact scenario - a levee break following a major storm. What does El Presidente do in reaction? CUT funding for the three-plus million in annual levee repairs and maintenence.

 

[Strike]

I know that I will get blasted for this comment, so let me add the caveat that I do feel horrible for what these people are going through.

But what do people expect, living on a flood plain or below sea level?  Especially in an area that is known for tropical storms and hurricanes?  But, of course, everything will be rebuilt in the exact same areas, making them susceptible to these same occurrences in the future.

 

[Sheerin]

I wonder how much power the office of the mayor has.

 

[muskrat89]

The Mayor of a municipality, especially one the size of New Orleans has a lot more power than you might imagine, including direct lines of communication to the Governor's office, and Federal resources also.

Look it is a cascading sytem of responsibilty. As I said, there is lots of blame to go around. President Bush needs to accept responsibility for resources under Federal jurisdiction, the Governor for things under State jurisdiction, the County Supervisors for County jurisdiction, and the Mayor, for the City. Don't confuse "fault" with responsibility. There will no doubt be things discovered in the AARs that no one could ever have anticipated - other things, the Agencies responsible should have anticipated, or fell short on, in their response.

 

[48Highlander]

I wonder how much power the office of the mayor has.

Not enough.  Evacuating an entire city is not a municipal matter.  The Mayor should have been responsible for sending out emergency broadcasts and coordinating the city's police, fire, and ambulance services.  He could also have chartered busses and trucks to assist those who could not provide their own transportation.  Beyond that, at the state level, the governor should have been coordinating with other cities to make preparations for the arrival of refugees in order to provide temporary shelter, food, and medical services.  She should have mobilized the National Guard immediately to assist wherver neccesary, including at the very least with providing transport in the 24 hours they had before the storm hit (airlift?  naval resources?  many could have been moving in time to help).  While the advance elements helped transport civilians, and provided limited security, the rest would have been going into battle procedure.  State police could have been used at strategic points to keep refugees moving and spread them out over several cities, instead of cramming them all into a giant stadium.  At the federal level, there was very little to do.  Biggest failiures as far as I can see were at the state level.

 

[-rb]

This is a good read so far that many of you may be interested in, detailing among other things Agency Coordination, Roles and Responsibilities, Federal Law Enforcement Assistance etc. etc.... quite long at 400+ pages and i haven't gone through the bulk of it yet, of particular interest to me though was the Public Safety and Security Annex to the document (ESF #13 for those who download the pdf)...

KATRINA:  AN INCIDENT OF NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE

The wreckage produced by Hurricane Katrina constitutes an
"incident of national significance."

This bit of bureaucratic understatement is actually a
technical term used by the Secretary of Homeland Security to
activate emergency procedures known as the National Response
Plan (NRP).

It was invoked this week for the first time by DHS Secretary
Michael Chertoff.

The NRP, formulated in December 2004, is intended "to align
Federal coordination structures, capabilities, and resources
into a unified, all-discipline, and all-hazards approach to
domestic incident management."

A copy of the National Response Plan is available here (426
pages, 4.0 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dhs/nrp.pdf

Obviously many lessons to be learned from New Orleans that could be applied to a Canadian incident of similar magnitude (god forbid).

cheers.

 

[muskrat89]

48 - You are correct in naming the logistics, but the Mayor is ultimately responsible for their City. Emergency Management as you indicated is a state function, for the most part - but the Municipalities have people sitting on the EMO Committees, teams, etc...

Remember Giuliani after 9/11 ?  Granted his City is the largest in the US (i.e more, but proportionate resources) BUT - the jurisdictional structures are still the same regarding Emergency Management

 

[SemperFidelis]

I love that the most powerful and most technologically advanced military in the world...took 4 days to get their bums into New Orleans...Bush was probably choking on a pretzel or learning to tie his shoes...i guess thats a good enough excuse

 

[-rb]

48 - You are correct in naming the logistics, but the Mayor is ultimately responsible for their City. Emergency Management as you indicated is a state function, for the most part - but the Municipalities have people sitting on the EMO Committees, teams, etc...

Remember Giuliani after 9/11 ?   Granted his City is the largest in the US (i.e more, but proportionate resources) BUT - the jurisdictional structures are still the same regarding Emergency Management

Muskrat89,
although in 911 it may have been that way it appears that that it is has been declared a Federal responsibility (quote from previsouly posted pdf)...


Incidents of National Significance
Pursuant to HSPD-5, as the principal Federal official for domestic incident management, the Secretary of
Homeland Security declares Incidents of National Significance (in consultation with other departments and
agencies as appropriate) and provides coordination for Federal operations and/or resources, establishes
reporting requirements, and conducts ongoing communications with Federal, State, local, tribal, privatesector,
and nongovernmental organizations to maintain situational awareness, analyze threats, assess national
implications of threat and operational response activities, and coordinate threat or incident response activities.

cheers.

(edit) OK, so from what I can gather after reading in to this some more the Emergeny Response coordination as a whole is a Federal Responsibility in this case, *but, the Mayor of New Orleans has a clear role in this (as alluded to by you originally muskrat )...

A mayor or city or county manager, as a jurisdiction's
chief executive, is responsible for the public safety and
welfare of the people of that jurisdiction. The Local
Chief Executive Officer:
â-  Is responsible for coordinating local resources to
address the full spectrum of actions to prevent,
prepare for, respond to, and recover from incidents
involving all hazards including terrorism, natural
disasters, accidents, and other contingencies;
â-  Dependent upon State and local law, has
extraordinary powers to suspend local laws and
ordinances, such as to establish a curfew, direct
evacuations, and, in coordination with the local
health authority, to order a quarantine;
â-  Provides leadership and plays a key role in communicating
to the public, and in helping people, businesses,
and organizations cope with the consequences of
any type of domestic incident within the jurisdiction;
â-  Negotiates and enters into mutual aid agreements with
other jurisdictions to facilitate resource-sharing; and
â-  Requests State and, if necessary, Federal assistance
through the Governor of the State when the jurisdiction's
capabilities have been exceeded or exhausted.

 

[muskrat89]

48, Yukon, etc... I think you are missing my point. I am not saying who assumes control, once the disaster has passed. I am not saying some entities don't superced others in a jurisdictional hierarchy. I am not saying that every level of Government doesn't share the blame.

I am saying that a Mayor is responsible for their City. They may require assistance and/or coordination from higher levels of Government, but they have the responsibility. Same with the heads of County Government - they are responsible for the unicorporated areas of the County, and for certain things, the incorporated areas as well. And up it goes...

Let's say there's an infantry section going out on patrol. They may require certain forms of support from higher, but the Sect Comd is responsible for the Mission. The FAC is responsible for air support. The Wing Commander is responsible to have the birds in the air at the appropriate timing. If Rifleman Jones forgot the smoke grenades to mark targets, it is not the Combat Team Commander's fault, nor the Wing Commander's, nor the Company Comd, etc. The Soldier bears some responsibility, as does the Sect Comd. As does the Platoon Comd. Depending on the importance/scope of the patrol, the Bn Comd may have to bear some of the responsibility.

The lines of responsibility are clear in some cases, and not so clear in others. The whole system works (or not) however, based on projections, requests, and demands - passed up and down...

 

[48Highlander]

I love that the most powerful and most technologically advanced military in the world...took 4 days to get their bums into New Orleans...Bush was probably choking on a pretzel or learning to tie his shoes...i guess thats a good enough excuse

I'm about ready to choke YOU with a ton of pretzels.  Bush not only didn't have the responsibility to deploy the military, but his ability to do so if he chose would have been handicapped by other factors.  For one thing, US law prohibits federal soldiers from acting in any policing capacity - they would have been limited to providing transport and distributing supplies.  For another thing, National Guard units are mobilized for domestic response at the descretion of the STATE government, NOT the president of the USA.  I know that bashing Bush is popular these days, but please, get a clue.