British MP: Canada complicit in Iraq war

[sheikyerbouti]

I was speaking more the reality that our forces were everywhere. In Legion Halls, Businesses and at Sunday dinners talking with Grandpa REME and Grandma WRN. They aren't anymore, period.

I have participated for many years alongside veterans of numerous foreign conflicts and one thing I have come to recognize is their innate passion for their community, This in my opinion, is sorely lacking nowadays.

Part of it is numbers, and part of it is a distinct unwillingness to participate as in years before. As an example I would suggest lack of Canadian participation in civic events outside of military affairs. For years at the PNE there was a small display by the CF, not this year at least not that I saw.

 

[KevinB]

I have participated for many years alongside veterans of numerous foreign conflicts and one thing I have come to recognize is their innate passion for their community, This in my opinion, is sorely lacking nowadays.

Rubbish - we send soliders to read to students at schools weekly - we participate in Rememberance Day ceremoies at schools. 

Part of it is numbers, and part of it is a distinct unwillingness to participate as in years before. As an example I would suggest lack of Canadian participation in civic events outside of military affairs. For years at the PNE there was a small display by the CF, not this year at least not that I saw.

Part of the reason is most of our kit is overseas...
  Some is massed in training areas (another sore spot)
Another is we(the CF) have been asked not to attend some venues with weapons...  Hard to show an Infantry section w/o weapons.

We always have volunteers for "Dog and Pony" shows - troops actually typically enjoy interacting with the public.

Several of us did a parade in Kelowna as thanks for when we went and fought the house fires...
We still gets thank yo ucards from family that we helped in the Manitoba flood and the Quebec Ice Storms.

I think you are being a bit myopic in the Civil-Military Interaction.

 

[paracowboy]

we're out in the Community all the time.
She's actually cuter than the pic shows. She has no front teeth.

 

[Dare]

http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demnow/demand/2005/sept/video/grapple.rm

I apologise if this video has been posted elsewhere. It is of the debate, in which Galloway is utterly decimated and outclassed.

Enjoy.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I was speaking more the reality that our forces were everywhere. In Legion Halls, Businesses and at Sunday dinners talking with Grandpa REME and Grandma WRN. They aren't anymore, period.

I have participated for many years alongside veterans of numerous foreign conflicts and one thing I have come to recognize is their innate passion for their community, This in my opinion, is sorely lacking nowadays.

Part of it is numbers, and part of it is a distinct unwillingness to participate as in years before. As an example I would suggest lack of Canadian participation in civic events outside of military affairs. For years at the PNE there was a small display by the CF, not this year at least not that I saw.

Our forces were also much, much larger in "years before" and weren't dealing with quite the level of fiscal restraint - and operational commitment - that we have now.  Sorry, but manning a display at the PNE has to take a back seat to doing Level 6/7 predeployment validation in Wainwright - and there is a conflict between the two.  With limited resources, you have to concentrate your efforts and flying soldiers to Vancouver to hang at the Legion isn't a valid use of tax dollars, IMHO.

Frankly, I think we're now doing a much better job than in previous years.  CTV in particular reports on the CF routinely.  Over the past three days, we've seen the Navy in the media returning from Katrina, the operations brief from COS J3 (which received significant amount of attention because he discussed JTF-2 in Afghanistan), press galore surrounding the military's "farewell" to the Governor General, a long story this morning on the Navy in the Gulf, etc, ad infinum.  Each one of these is worth 100 displays at a public exhibition or "recruiting" in the local shopping mall...

 

[Kirkhill]

Another reason for lack of visibility revolves around parades.  While militia units seem to be free to exercise "freedom of the city" parades annually - usually only a hundred or so bodies, when was the last time that a reg force garrison parade was held or even a reg force unit "freedom of the city" parade was held?

50 part timers in exotic hats (I used to wear Glengarry and Balmoral so don't go there)  does not give quite the same impact as a body of 1000 all digging their heels in together.  The Edmonton parade for 3 PPCLI was the first time I had seen that many uniforms on TV together since the Black Watch stood down in 1970 (? somebody will correct me).

 

[Infanteer]

Another reason for lack of visibility revolves around parades.   While militia units seem to be free to exercise "freedom of the city" parades annually - usually only a hundred or so bodies, when was the last time that a reg force garrison parade was held or even a reg force unit "freedom of the city" parade was held?

50 part timers in exotic hats (I used to wear Glengarry and Balmoral so don't go there)   does not give quite the same impact as a body of 1000 all digging their heels in together.   The Edmonton parade for 3 PPCLI was the first time I had seen that many uniforms on TV together since the Black Watch stood down in 1970 (? somebody will correct me).

I think it is more common than you think.  There is always Rememberance Day, and I can remember hearing of a few Freedom of the City marches that PPCLI took part in.  As well, I remember the big hoopla when PPCLI left Calgary.

Now, I know the PPCLI is getting close to 100 - there is probably something big being planned for that (I think the Strats are almost there as well).

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Itty, bitty point...   The LdSH(RC) were 100 in 2000.   They did a coast to coast reinactment of their deployment to South Africa as one of the events.   Another example of good PR...    ;D

 

[Infanteer]

Itty, bitty point...   The LdSH(RC) were 100 in 2000.   They did a coast to coast reinactment of their deployment to South Africa as one of the events.   Another example of good PR...    ;D

Ok, my bad.  The date 1908 is sitting in my head for some reason; I'm trying to remember why.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm glad to hear I am wrong - but why am I hearing I am wrong?

As an ardent militarist  ;D that seems magnetically attracted to such events - howizzit that these events escape my attention?  I don't think they are as well publicized in the general community as you might think.  Not may read your in-house newsletters.

The Strats may had re-enacted their deployment, but apparently Infanteer didn't hear about it either.  On the other hand the Mounties have had movies made, coins minted and re-enactments with news crews following them and politicians as they marched towards Fort Whoop Up.

 

[armyvern]

2RCR also just exercised Freedom of the City in St John's Newfoundland this past summer. They spent a week up there and according to the news coverage around here, had a blast. Imagine that. Their Parade co-incided with Armed Forces Day, days spent mingling with the locals, LAV rides for the kiddies, evenings spent at Kitchen Parties and in a few of the "most Bars per Captia" hangouts....oh yes then they came back here for a break, attended the smashingly successful Internationally recognized Nova Scotia Tattoo and Shearwater Airshows and are constantly in Fredericton and surrounding areas doing their bit with the LAV rides at schools and community events, and the DARE Program. Armed Forces Day for Gagetown is hugely popular, with us moving into downtown Fredericton for the festivities with all the kit and caboodles.
Rememberance Day? Every Canadian knows when it is but it seems to me the crowds are dwindling to almost nil. Seems that it's the Vets and us out there now (along with the Scouts, Guides, Cadets).... where are the civilians? You know those ones we need to get out and mingle with? If they're home, I get the feeling that they are not watching the National Ceremonies on their television sets either.
A generally apathetic Canadian population...I think it's the average Canadian's mindset that's the problem and certainly not the fault of or lack of effort on the Soldier's or the Military as a whole's part. Don't blame us!! Blame the Canadians who choose to sit on their butts ignoring and despising the fact that we exist until their snow piles too deeply for them to shovel it themselves.

 

[Kirkhill]

The in-house newsletter crack was ill advised. 

Still there does seem to be a problem in getting the message out at some level - whether its public affairs or the media (aren't these the types of things that the CBC should be broadcasting more of?).

Cheers

 

[48Highlander]

50 part timers in exotic hats (I used to wear Glengarry and Balmoral so don't go there)   does not give quite the same impact as a body of 1000 all digging their heels in together.   The Edmonton parade for 3 PPCLI was the first time I had seen that many uniforms on TV together since the Black Watch stood down in 1970 (? somebody will correct me).

Should have been there for the VE day parade(s) in Toronto then.  Most of 32 brigade was there.  Ends up being a bit more than "50 part-timers in exotic hats".

 

[sheikyerbouti]

I'm back.. miss me? >

Just to throw a wrench in the works, it seems most of you agree with my assertion that the CF's participation in the civilian community is shaped by its regional focus.

Ruxpin's statement about flying people into Vancouver to hang out in legion's is exactly what I am talking about. Why the hell do they need to be flown out here? Correct me if I am wrong but Vancouver is still one of the largest Urban populations in Canada and we still have to fly people out! wtf? There is more than one Militia outfit that is crippled mostly by manpower and budgetary circumstances to the extent that we look outwards for for numbers rather than inwards for said support.

In response to ArmyVern, I disagree that number are dropping WRT Armistice day and other celebrations. What seems to be dropping is  the Military participation in said events. I need to add some background here, for the last 14 years I have participated in more parades and civic functions than you could shake a stick at. This is where my experience lies, and I can honestly recount that the numbers of civvies involved would boggle the mind. Any Westies on this forum could attest to the numbers that came out for last years Remembrance day, it was crazy there must have been 2 or 3 thousand people with probably 6000 plus for the Vancouver ceremony. It was so crowded people couldn't see the Cenotaph (as recounted by friends who attended).

Now I will give you an example of what I feel is degraded CiMiC and collaboration: No names here, but every year alot of the Mo's do a tour of the local legions to show some respect to those that remain. Some of the locations put on a spread that is to be enjoyed by all, now at one particular branch some of the guys showed up in Uni, enjoyed some drinks, ate ALL the food, then left. That's it..

I have never heard more complaints in my life about the conduct or lack thereof by these individuals in question. Before you all jump down my throat, I would like to add that the issue was addressed with higher ups (chain of command) and subsequently resolved but that one particular event serves to perfectly sum up my position. It is not the civilian or retired components but rather the appearance of negligence or lack of respect from some in the military arms that exacerbates an ongoing concern.

It's not about dog and ponies but about recognition of the people who are to be served. Respect begets respect.

Please note there is no antagonism or undue criticism intended, just some humble reflections from my own experiences.

 

[armyvern]

I'm back.. miss me? >

Just to throw a wrench in the works, it seems most of you agree with my assertion that the CF's participation in the civilian community is shaped by its regional focus.

I believe you wrote earlier in this thread that the average Canadian focus was what?? Regional ie they play the Navy coming home from sea because that is what the wife wants to see in that area.
Once again...talk to the locals and average Canadians who whined and whined for the budget cuts that took the Victoria Pats etc etc away from there local areas!! Thus, leaving us unable to afford to fly in to visit once we moved out. I don't recall seeing those populations on my television set or in the paper protesting these Base closures and budget cuts. Unlike the uproar now occuring to our Southern border regarding their recently announced closures. 
Point One: I have never attend an "Armistace Day Parade" yet I have never missed a Rememberance Day Parade, Battle of the Atlantic etc etc...
Point Two: Perhaps you are experiencing decreased Military participation at your location due to the same budget cuts and Base closures mentioned above?
My experience also attests to the fact that our numbers can't quite boggle the mind when our entire CF fits in the Skydome. So no, we just don't look like muchdue to same said budget cuts mentioned above. But all of us are out there...they are not "optional."
And last year during our Ceremonies here in Fredericton, I was awestruck at the fact that many many members of the un-uniformed population continue to walk on by, one really lovely middle aged gentleman thought it would be hilarious to crank his car stereo while Oh Canada and the Last Post were played and he and his buddy thought that was really funny. And the vet next to me made the remark as to why couldn't all Canadians be more like us that currently were serving in uniform!!!
And I have have never had more compliments and thanks in my life than from those same vets for having the "courage" to carry on the torch that they had passed to us. A lack of respect is also shown by some of the average Canadian population and I regret the situation that yourself and the honourable veteran's found themselves subject to when those soldier's ate and ran. And I hope they paid dearly for it. But, do not let one negative experience tar your whole picture.
"Respect begets respect."
I totally agree but it's a two way street vice the one way you seem to be on. From my own experiences, I can attest to the fact that the overwhelming majority us CF pers are indeed out there in the community doing their very best to be ambassador's to the public at home and this of Nation internationally when deployed. As has been said many times in this thread previously, we do our utmost but can not make the media print it...it's again....all subjective....
Perhaps instead of asking us to become more involved in the community (which we already overwhelmingly are) you should be out taking the civilian Community to task for not becoming involved, interested in (despite our best efforts) or supporting their Military, after all "respect begets respect. ". Just my point of view.

 

[sheikyerbouti]

Armistice day is November 11, same as Remembrance day.

 

[armyvern]

Armistice day is November 11, same as Remembrance day.

Really?? Well I was already well aware of that... the point is I go on Remeberance Day Parades after all:
I am Canadian!!

 

[muskrat89]

I find it interesting that you pontificate about regionalism, but you seem to declare a countrywide "problem", based on your own, local experiences. Methinks also, that I see a trend here, where you like to take an opposing view, all the time, sugarcoat it with "no offence meants" and try to get everyone riled up "miss me?  >" If you're here solely to argue, your stay may be limited.

My experiences have been the exact opposite of yours. My Battery continues to be a mainstay of the Community, and participates in lots of other events besides military-related ones

As a member of the CF, I started New Brunswick's only Unit of ANAVETS, and they continue today.

It seems that no matter how many people, with current experience in other parts of the country, offer views contrary to yours - you keep beating your drum.