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Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay

Journeyman said:
Oh, and this whole scenario isn't tragic / magnificent enough (perspective dependent),  you had to bring up rugby.....after Canada's boring 20-18 defeat by Italy yesterday....  :(  Bitch!
As a descendant of a round-ball-fanatic country, I didn't want to mention it ...  >:D
Chris Pook said:
... on the subject of campaign statements - there are statements and there are statements and there are interpretations of statements.

"We can move money to health care."  "We will move money to health care." "They said they would move money to health care."

Equally:

"The universe will end."  "A black hole will ensue."  "Your pensions will disappear." "Nobody will trade with us ever again."

And let us not get into the subject of domestic Canadian politicians and campaign statements.

It is permissible to point out worst case scenarios during debate.  Equally it is permissible to point out best case scenarios.  Both scenarios are equally unlikely.
:nod:
 
Remius said:
The point is that leaders on the leave side are backing away from statements they made prior to the referendum.  And yes they can allocate funds any way they want, the problem is that those sectors who were assured that those funds would still go to them are being told that now, that might not happen.

So just like the Trudeau Liberals then.
 
The Brits can afford to hold off a bit on Article 50. Right now the EU wants to punish them and make it a nasty acrimonious divorce.

Meanwhile, a number of other countries are planning referendums.

By the time Article 50 is invoked by Britain, the EU just might be negotiating from a position of weakness and fighting other sovereign  states on a number of fronts.

If a few others go along with Britain, it might well be the end of the EU.

And really, who needs to be told you can only buy two bananas at a time and they have to be straight, not curved, or other such nonsense.
 
recceguy said:
And really, who needs to be told you can only buy two bananas at a time and they have to be straight, not curved, or other such nonsense.

Which is why I would have voted to leave.  The meddling From Brussels would piss me off to no end.  Nevermind being pushed around by Germany or this migration issue.
 
>Brexit broken promises

Given the evolution of the Lisbon Treaty, claims about misrepresentations by those opposed to EUnification need not be taken seriously.

I doubt many EU members are going to go to the wall to satisfy the desire of EUrocrats to punish Britain.  Spain, for example, needs tourist dollars.  I can't imagine why the average Spaniard would accept any fraction of hardship to satisfy fat technocrats in Brussels.

The harder Brussels squeezes, the more likely it becomes that additional EU members will slip the grasp.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Brexit broken promises

Given the evolution of the Lisbon Treaty, claims about misrepresentations by those opposed to EUnification need not be taken seriously.

I doubt many EU members are going to go to the wall to satisfy the desire of EUrocrats to punish Britain.  Spain, for example, needs tourist dollars.  I can't imagine why the average Spaniard would accept any fraction of hardship to satisfy fat technocrats in Brussels.

The harder Brussels squeezes, the more likely it becomes that additional EU members will slip the grasp.

Plus Spain has it's own separatist issue to deal with and won't be keen on accepting an independent Scotland.
 
Colin P said:
Plus Spain has it's own separatist issue to deal with and won't be keen on accepting an independent Scotland.
Not to mention Belgium's tensions ...
 
Colin P said:
Plus Spain has it's own separatist issue to deal with and won't be keen on accepting an independent Scotland.

Maybe, but it is keen on getting some sovereignty over Gibraltar.
 
Scotland to the rescue of English as EU official language?

Brexit prompts a push to end English in the European Union
...
With the impending British exit from the European Union, the polyglot Babel that has 24 official languages may soon strike English off the list, according to officials here, who note the change with a mixture of sadness and glee.

...if Britain pulls out, the European Union will lose the only nation that has designated English as its official language inside E.U. institutions. Each country is allowed to pick one tongue, and Ireland and Malta — the other two E.U. nations that are predominantly English-speaking — chose Gaelic and Maltese, respectively. But they are tiny compared with the juggernauts of France and Germany, which supply the other two “unofficial” working languages of the European Union...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/28/brexit-prompts-a-push-to-end-english-in-the-european-union/?wpisrc=nl_wv&wpmm=1

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
Scotland to the rescue of English as EU official language?

Mark
Ottawa

What about Ireland?  The first language is English. The second language is Polish.  The third language is Irish.
 
Rocky Mountains: From the story:

...Each country is allowed to pick one tongue, and Ireland and Malta — the other two E.U. nations that are predominantly English-speaking — chose Gaelic and Maltese, respectively...

Mark
Ottawa
 
Until such time as Art 50 is invoked by the UK,there is no Brexit.Maybe not even then because the EU Parliament and governing body must agree to how such an exit would occur.
 
Even better ...
tomahawk6 said:
Until such time as Art 50 is invoked by the UK, and the process is completed, there is no Brexit.
 
Some interesting things that I picked up listening to various discussions on the way to work this morning.

First, a though experiment. Is it possible that the whole referendum was never intended to actually decide if the UK were to pull out of the EU, but rather a response by Cameron to his detractors (at least in part) within the party to put up or shut up, specifically Boris Johnson? It's no secret that there has been animosity between the two going back to their college years. It gives Cameron the ability to walk away from the leadership and lay blame for the fiasco at the feet of the far right detractors in the party.

Second, although the results show a majority of votes for the Leave side, it's not really a strong, clear mandate to leave. 52% to 48%. a swing of roughly 635,000 votes would have resulted in a split vote. It could easily be justified that staying with the status quo is the best course of action, and pursuing changes to the various treaties and agreements is the more desirable option. And this may well be the out that the Brits may use to unring the bell.

Third, the results are not legally binding, so Cameron could just ignore the results at his own peril. However, going back to the first point, he has a scapegoat to hang it on, and I suspect that his quick decision to resign and delaying the trigger on article 50 for the enjoyment of his successor could well be Cameron's intended course of action, without having to say he's going to ignore the will of the people. And the uproar seems to help rather than hinder his cause if that is indeed the plan

With respect to the reaction of the EU political leadership, the aggressive stance they are taking may well backfire. They may in part be emboldened by the results of the bullying they laid on Greece to force the changes that they wanted without consideration of the effect it had on the Greek economy (and I agree something needed to be done, and in this case their course of action may have gotten them what they wanted). But they seem to have forgotten that the UK is not Greece, and this is going to cause pain across the board. Yes, it may be more of a show to warn the weaker states from pulling the same stunt, but it will come back to bite them in the ass.

Ultimately, I can see this ending with a whimper rather than a brawl. A bunch of drunken idiots starting out playing poke chest, and ending with everyone crying, hugging and expressing their love for each other. Rational (for Europeans that is a stretch) heads will prevail, and they will sit down and address the concerns that precipitated the events.
 
And to add insult to injury.  :rofl:
 

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Nigel Farage wins the Sore Loser Award.

Brexiteer Nigel Farage To EU: 'You're Not Laughing Now, Are You?'

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/28/483857209/watch-brexiteer-nigel-farage-to-eu-youre-not-laughing-now-are-you?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20160628

Nigel Farage, a member of the European Parliament and the leader of the U.K. Independence Party, spoke on the floor of the European Parliament on Tuesday morning.

It was a special session of the Parliament, called in the wake of the U.K.'s decision to leave the European Union. Farage — whose eurosceptic right-wing party was firmly in favor of the Brexit, and who personally campaigned quite passionately for it — was grinning.

And on a day marked with fiery speeches, his stood out.

Farage was booed from the start — he could barely get out "Good morning." The president of the European Parliament had to chastise the gathered lawmakers into letting Farage speak. When he finally began, here's what he had to say.

"Funny, isn't it?
"When I came here 17 years ago and I said that I wanted to lead a campaign to get Britain to leave the European Union, you all laughed at me.
"Well, I have to say, you're not laughing now, are you?"


Farage told the other members the source of their anger was clear:

"You as a political project are in denial. You're in denial that your currency is failing. You're in denial — well, just look at the Mediterranean! As a policy to impose poverty on Greece and the Mediterranean you've done very well.
"You're in denial over Mrs. Merkel's call last year for as many people as possible to cross the Mediterranean into the European Union [which] has led to massive divisions between within countries and between countries."


Farage invoked the controversial history of the EU Constitution. It failed to be ratified as its own treaty, but most of the elements of the proposed constitution were instituted through the Treaty of Lisbon.

"The biggest problem you've got and the main reason the U.K. voted the way it did is because you have — by stealth, by deception, without ever telling the truth to the rest of the peoples of Europe — you have imposed upon them a political union.
"And when the people in 2005 in the Netherlands and France voted against that political union and rejected the constitution, you simply ignored them and brought the Lisbon Treaty in through the back door."



Farage called the vote "a remarkable result":

"What happened last Thursday was a remarkable result — it was, indeed, a seismic result. Not just for British politics, for European politics, but perhaps even for global politics, too.
"Because what the little people did, what the ordinary people did — what the people who've been oppressed over the last few years and seen their living standards go down — they rejected the multinationals, they rejected the merchant banks, they rejected big politics and they said, 'Actually, we want our country back. We want our fishing waters back. We want our borders back.' ...
"In doing so, we now offer a beacon of hope to democrats across the rest of the European continent. I'll make one prediction this morning: the United Kingdom will not be the last member state to leave the European Union."


Here's the line that brought the assembly — which had been occasionally grumbling during Farage's speech, with a few smatterings of applause — into a rage.

"I know that virtually none of you have ever done a proper job in your lives, or worked in business, or worked in trade, or indeed ever created a job. But listen, just listen."

During the resulting uproar, the president of the EU Parliament, Martin Schulz, had to call for order. He chastised the MEPs by, well, insulting Farage's own party:

"I do understand that you are getting emotional, but you are acting like UKIP usually acts in this chamber, so please, don't imitate them," he said.

He also told Farage to cut it out.

"You really can't say that, I'm sorry," Schulz said.

Farage highlighted the trade relationships between the U.K. and Europe, and told an audibly amused Parliament that attempts to punish the U.K. for its departure would only hurt the 27 countries remaining in the EU.

"That trade matters. If you were to cut off your noses to spite your faces and to reject any idea of a sensible trade deal, the consequences would be far worse for you than it would be for us."
[Laughter from MEPs]
"Even no deal is better for the United Kingdom is better than the current rotten deal that we've got. But if we were to move to a position where tariffs were reintroduced on products like motorcars then hundreds of thousands of German works would risk losing their jobs."


Here's how he closed:

"Why don't we just be pragmatic, sensible, grown-up, realistic — and let's cut between us a sensible, tariff-free deal.
[Laughter.]
"And thereafter, recognize that the United Kingdom will be your friend, that we will trade with you, we will cooperate with you, we will be your best friends in the world.
"But do that, do it sensibly, and allow us to go off and pursue our global ambitions and future."


Farage was met with some applause and a great deal of booing, and sat down with a visible smile.
 
>they will sit down and address the concerns that precipitated the events.

I doubt it.  If the pro-EU people get their way despite the result, they will pocket the win and carry on with their program.  If they were inclined to address concerns, they would already have done so.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>they will sit down and address the concerns that precipitated the events.

I doubt it.  If the pro-EU people get their way despite the result, they will pocket the win and carry on with their program.  If they were inclined to address concerns, they would already have done so.

Actually I was referring more to the member countries of the EU than the British parties. And they have the incentive that the nationalist movements in their own countries may well push for their own departure.
 
Fallout in the Labour Party:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/foreign-policy/europe/jeremy-corbyn-lefts-lunacy/

Jeremy Corbyn and the Left’s Lunacy
NOAH ROTHMAN / JUNE 28, 2016

The two most direct and visible effects of the Brexit vote have been a financial shock and a political implosion. Post-Brexit economic instability is the result of a panic, and it is reasonable to expect the markets to find a new equilibrium soon. The collapse of political stability in Britain, however, is rooted in more fundamental factors that won’t be resolved quickly. The resignation of Prime Minister David Cameron has thrown the Conservative majority into turmoil, but a revolt within the minority Labour Party against its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, is also ongoing. It is an ugly reflection on Labour and the left in general that it took a failed plebiscite on Europe to finally wake the party up to what a noxious, paranoid, graceless figure their leader truly is.

Brexit would not have passed as narrowly as it did if it were not for the support of Labour voters to retreat from the EU. That represents a stunning humiliation for the Europhilic center-left Labour and a remarkable defeat for Jeremy Corbyn—although he does not personally view it that way.

Corbyn has always been hostile toward European integration. While conservatives of the “Euro-skeptical” variety tend to cast a suspicious eye on the EU for its anti-market values, Corbyn finds the EU suspiciously too laissez-faire. He voted against the Maastricht Treaty, which created the EU, and the Lisbon Treaty, which established its constitution. He criticized the terms on which Greece was provided loans in exchange for adopting austere budgetary restrictions as being too harsh. “There is no future for a Europe that turns its smaller nations into colonies of debt peonage,” Corbyn wrote as recently as 2015.

This stance is remarkably out of step with his internationalist party, and the failure to prevent Brexit appears the straw that broke Labour’s back. In the wake of the referendum vote, the majority of the shadow Labour government has resigned. Despite all these clear signals that Corbyn has lost the faith of his fellow party members, he still insists he will not vacate his post. Even the Labour-friendly Daily Mirror was reduced to begging this “decent man,” in a “heartfelt message,” to resign “for the sake of your party” and “country.” 47 resignations later, the party declared an open revolt against Corbyn—172 Labour MPs voted against their leader in a confidence vote on Tuesday.

Corbyn is a man who by any sane calculation should never have been elevated to his present position. He bemoaned the fate of the Taliban after September 11th, and claimed that there had been a “manipulation” of information by the omnipotent but ill defined “they” to manufacture international conflict. This kind of conspiratorial thinking is not new to the man who became the Labour’s leader. In an article for Labour Briefing in 1991, Corbyn called the Coalition ouster of Saddam Hussein’s forces from Kuwait a “curtain-raiser for the New World Order.”

When the United States finally killed Osama bin Laden in a Special Forces operation in 2011, Corbyn called it an “assassination attempt,” in which no effort was made to capture the terrorist and bring him to trial. That rendered the al-Qaeda leader’s death a “tragedy” on par with the destruction of the World Trade Center towers in 2001.

Corbyn has long been infatuated with radical Islamist terrorists, if only because he approves of their targets. He described the Iranian terrorist organization Hezbollah and the murderous Hamas in Gaza as the West’s “friends,” and supported a total arms embargo on Israel. Corbyn has gleefully shared a stage with the most unhinged European Holocaust deniers and defended those fringe figures who claim 9/11 was perpetrated by the Israeli Mossad.

Under Corbyn, the Labour Party has been implicated in one anti-Semitic incident after another. In early May, the Telegraph reported that 50 Labour members had been secretly disciplined over anti-Semitic and racist comments amid an “influx of hard-left supporters following Jeremy Corbyn’s election.” Formerly peripheral views about Hitler and Israel’s support for ISIS, which were once relegated only to the darkest fringes of society, were out in the open. They had found a mainstream champion.

Corbyn is not the disease but a symptom; a lagging indicator of an ideology gone mad. Labour’s leader has recklessly legitimized conspiratorial anti-Western and anti-Semitic thought. Corbyn represents so much more than the British left’s overcorrection away from Blairite centrism. He exemplifies an unattractive impulse among younger liberals in America and Britain to embrace the perpetually adolescent unreconstructed socialists of the 20th Century as they struggle to comprehend and navigate the challenges of their own time. These formerly marginal figures were once consigned to the fringe for a good reason.

It has long been obvious to all but the most blinkered of paranoid basement-dwellers that Corbyn is unfit to lead the Labour Party. His elevation to his current position confirms the belief that the Western left has become reckless and radicalized. It wasn’t Corbyn’s conspiratorial thinking, his anti-Semitism, his flirtation with violence and autarky, or his apologies for terrorists that robbed Labour of confidence in their eccentric leader. It was his failure to campaign hard enough to preserve European subsidies that did him in. That fact alone exposes how truly deep the rot within the British left goes.
 
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