BMQ personal kit search

[Pugnacious]

"Unless your a fully qualified knife fighter and have reason to believe you require that knife for defense."

Very true...Let me digress for a bit and add some stuff.

I'd open the Canadian criminal code book and do some quotes but I'm off to vote so I'll be quick.
In Canada EVERYTHING is considered a 'potential weapon'. 
Some weapons are specifide only to outline wether they are restriced (need permits) or prohibited (illegal to have)...ie handguns, Assualt weapons etc.

There is no qualification for knives, or registration.
Training courses are not outlined, and the law, and the leagl beagles consider you an expert after one week end course, but even this is not really outlined.

The colour of the law basicly says (in my own words here) you better have  a good reason why you have said knife tucked in your belt in so and so situation.
BTW: "for self defence" IS a valid reason, as is utility. The overall picture with regards to the situation is what the police are looking at.

Also understand that if you use the knife (or any other weapon) you had better be in very dire situation of life and death or you will prob' be charged with active participation..or some such nasty...even with the attackers knife still in your gut.

I firmly believe that if you have a knife know how and when to use it, but understand even in self defence the legal mess one is going to have to deal with is prob' as bad as the assult on ones person in the first place.  The legal system in Canada can be a really tricky place. And you can always be dragged back into court by the attacker who is now sueing you for damages (believe it or not it has happend).

I know this as I have studied knife fighting for many years, and watched many go through this.  Furthermore the first thing we where taught as a 'civillian' student was how to AVOID the situation, and how to GET AWAY as fast as possible...running heel-to-toe.  We were also taught the FBI's R.A.D system ie...Recognize danger, Avoid said danger, and failing the first 2 steps if need be Defend self, but aim to disengage and cycle back to the first, and second step.  Take this info into court and the judge will recognize you are not only trained, but made efforts to stay disengaged from the fight in a civil manner... COVER YOUR A$$.  ;D

Play safe, and you may no return this topic to its upright position.
Cheers!
P.

 

[KevinB]

Knives are tools, if it is the only tool you have...

 

[pissedpat]

I'm on weekend leave from BMQ in Chilliwack right now so I am assuming that the original poster is on the later serial that arrived on sunday so the way I was treated is likely similar to how they will be treated. No personal knives over 4", kit inspection on arrival, and the best of all, the Chilliwack barracks are on RCMP property and therefor the few rights you have in the military about searches needing JAG warrents are moot. Long story short, don't bring booze drugs or knives, keep your shit locked and neat and cell phones and radios are allowed if you don't do anything too stupid. Don't blast the listen to them without head phones and ensure that the only time your phone is turned on/on you is once you are off for the day.

 

[portcullisguy]

While I don't want to (nor am qualified to) give a law lesson on weapons, as a customs officer I am required to know plenty about weapons laws as part of my job is to make a determination about the classification of goods and permit or deny their entry into Canada based on those laws.

The Criminal Code defines weapons, and to summarize it, includes anything deisgned or intended to be used as a weapon.  Knives are not named specifically, but are included under "designed" or "intended" in most instances.  For example, a butter knife is not designed to be a weapon, but if you stab someone with it, then you intended it so.  Similarly, a switchblade is designed as a weapon (it has no practical manufactured use aside from that), but not necessarily intended as one if you just collect them.  So why is one illegal, and the other not?

The asmwer is the Prohibited Weapons Orders, issued by Order-in-Council.  The Criminal Code allows the government to issue orders-in-council prescribing certain weapons (and devices, and ammunition, and firearms) as prohibited, restricted, etc.

Most knives are ok.  The ones that are not include:

- "Flick" knives (a knife that can be opened merely by centrifugal force, or flicking your wrist)
- Switchblades (a spring loaded or mechanically assisted knife that opens by button or release on the HANDLE ... buttons/levers on the blade are ok)
- Any device concealing a blade and which is disguised as an innocuous object (a lighter with a knife, a belt buckle with a knife, etc)
- A gravity knife
- Any bladed device with the handle perpendicular to the blade (a push dagger)
- A butterfly knife (again, opens by centrifugal force)

There is no limit on blade length, except as an exception to the above rules.  For example, a sword cane is not illegal, because it is over 30cm in length.  If you ever found a switchblade that was over a foot long, it would be legal as well.

These PWO's classify certain goods and make them illegal or illegal depending on what the government believes their designed use is.  However, as I pointed out before, the "intended" use can also make something illegal.  A concealed weapon is illegal, even if the item itself is legal.  If I go walking around with a steak knife taped to my forearm under the sleeve, and get caught, I'll have a hard time explaining it's my favourite steak knife and I was going to a restaurant to order up a T-bone.

Which brings us to a final point -- something is only unlawful if it's caught.  But my advice is, not to take chances.  If you don't need it, don't carry it.  I only carry a small folding pocket knife for work.  I don't carry it any other time anymore.  Odds are, if you end up in a knife fight with someone who knows how to use one, you are better off not having a knife of your own.

 

[Pugnacious]

Good info from Customs guy.
And sorry in advance I'm going to prattle on a bit more...

IMHO one really needs to know the laws of the land, a how many laws don't make any sense at all, and I suspect many where prob' written by people sitting in an office reading magazines saying "oh that looks nasty, lets bann it!" with littel practicle knowledge on the subject.  Let a Customs officer or a Peace officer write the book, and things would look much better IMHO.

For example...
Regarding what you wrote: - "Flick" knives (a knife that can be opened merely by centrifugal force, or flicking your wrist)

Here is an interesting example... I have a small 4" single blade Kershaw folding knife, it has a thumb "index point" along the top back of the blade so it can be opened one handed / thumb..that is physicaly opened... non mechanicly, there are no springs or such mech'. 

Now tech' I can also 'flck-it' open via centrifugal force..like any good folding BUCK knife also...with the wrist action mentioned or by holding the top back edge of the blade.It isn't designed for this, but it can function like this.

In comparison this can be done MUCH faster then a butterfly knife ie.. Balisong (which I'm trained with), and BTW a bit further off topic part of the butterfly knifes operation, and design is not just in the opening of the blade, but grapples, pinches, joint manipulation, and such...which is seldom seen on the streets of Canada.

My little Kershaw is sold at many knife shops around Canada in malls etc, and makes it through customs OK by he thousands all the time.
RCMP have looked at it over the years when I leave it with them at the front desk If I have to testify in court via security job stuff, and never batted an eye. Other then to say "nice knife, I'd like to get one". I also often see ER teams and Ambulance people carry them.

Of course I carry it for utility only as well. 
Besides which only an idiot in this day and age of Aids, and hepatitis 1, 2 and 3 would want someone bleeding all over them.

Don't bring it if yu don't need it is really good advice.
Cheers!
P.

 

[The_Falcon]

Myself and Portcullis Guy actually had a conversation about this not to long ago with some other members of our unit when we were leaving Florida.   The one thing that was mentioned that he did not bring up here but you did Pugnacious, if the "what if" I have a totally legal folding knife, but through simple wear/oiling/or maniplutation, I can "flick" the blade open.   Well the short answer is you have an illegal knife.   It does not matter if the knife originally could be flicked open, it can now.   If a cop ever stopped you (or the cops at the court house ever checked) and the cop could flick the knife himself (that is the key though) you could be in deep doo doo. Now chances are the cop might not know the law very well, or he simply may not care, it is his perogative to do something about it.   As for stores selling illegal knives and martial arts weapons like nunchuks, they are at the bottom of the list when it comes to enforcement, because lets face it illegal firearm/drugs/forged identity document are a much higher priority and get all the attention.

Oh and about the original topic, the only time I have ever heard of kit searches, they always involved the MPs

 

[Pugnacious]

Strange when you can go into any Canadian Mall and walk into a knife shpe and buy them..they are checked at the boarder, and let through.
I guess it helps if yah get a clumbsy cop.  ;D

Pretty cool site:
http://www.kershawknives.com/
My knife is the Ken onion design 'whirlwind', I bring it everywhere..very handy.

Cheers!
P.

 

[AlphaCharlie]

I've learned that it depends on course staff.

On my BMQ they didn't care if you had one, but on my SQ (weekend leave atm) there is NO civvie knives at all, not even in the field (which is BS and I hate it so fucking much because I use my knife all the time in the field).

 

[portcullisguy]

I would really like to reassure you all that everything you find sold at stores in malls has been checked by a competent customs officer at a border crossing somewhere.

But the truth is, we can't inspect every shipment of everything, and a lot of times, goods are imported illegally and successfully simply because they are misdescribed - intentionally or not.  This is precisely how a high school student in Hamilton was able to obtain a fully operational AK-47 by mail, shipped from a seller in the US, who described it as "aluminum baseball bats".

As a customs officer, or any other joe blow, are you really going to devote a lot of time and attention to a long package marked baseball bats going to an innocuous address in Hamilton?  I'd like to say yes, it should have been looked at, but the simple fact is, not everything gets examined.

For the same reason, knives that are or can become illegal by definition make it in all the time, same as air soft guns, most of which are prohibited because they are considered replicas (a replica is a device that is NOT a firearm, but which imitates one with near precision ... they are not firearms because the projectile they fire is under the required muzzle velocity).

I have a Cold Steel 3" folding knife, bought here in Canada from a reputable mall knife dealer.  Through repeated use and practice, I can usually flick it open on the first try.  If I were classifying it for entry into Canada, I would have to prohibit it based on that.  However, the legal test is if someone ELSE can also flick it open reliably.  The courts have agreed that some people have a better technique than others, and if it can't be flicked reliably by most people, then it's not a flick knife.  There was a case involving a brilliant defense lawyer and a not so brilliant crown, with regards to a knife whose classification was under review at the Federal Court level.  The crown permitted the defense to attempt to flick the knife, and he could not.  The defense then offered the judge to do the same, and he couldn't either.  Case dismissed.  The judge proved through his own actions that the knife couldn't be flicked, even if someone else claims they can do it themselves.  Now, any knife we at customs claim to be a flick knife has to be checked by at least two officers, otherwise we're not going to bother holding it.

Luckily for us, flick knives are actually the least of our worries.

We are usually too busy trying to stop switch blades, mace and tear gas sprays, push daggers, butterfly knives, knives concealed in every day items such as lighters, and martial arts type weapons from coming in to the country.  And, that's only when we've run out of kiddie porn and other obscene material, restricted and prohibited firearms and ammunition, controlled drugs and substances, people on arrest warrants and drunk drivers, missing/abdusted children and their abductors, proceeds of crime, forged documents, illegal immigrants, terrorists, or a host of other contraband and smugglers we look for daily.  And once in a while, we actually collect some duties and taxes on dutiable goods, in order to protect Canadian economy.

There are about 4,500 customs officers across Canada, working at 6 major airports, and over a dozen busy border crossings, as well as four international mail centres, and various marine ports, and other ports of entry, sharing a border with a country with over 275 million in population, and where over 54% of households contain at least one firearm, and the #1 destination country for almost every drug there is, and for which we are usually a transshipment point, as well as the #1 destination for illegal immigrants worldwide.  Yes, we are quite busy sometimes, and it's very possible we may not get to every single shipment of dodgy mall knives coming in to the country.

 

[Infanteer]

I was going to say "why are we wasting the time on a "flick" knife?" until I read this

We are usually too busy trying to stop switch blades, mace and tear gas sprays, push daggers, butterfly knives, knives concealed in every day items such as lighters, and martial arts type weapons from coming in to the country.   And, that's only when we've run out of kiddie porn and other obscene material, restricted and prohibited firearms and ammunition, controlled drugs and substances, people on arrest warrants and drunk drivers, missing/abdusted children and their abductors, proceeds of crime, forged documents, illegal immigrants, terrorists, or a host of other contraband and smugglers we look for daily.   And once in a while, we actually collect some duties and taxes on dutiable goods, in order to protect Canadian economy.

There are about 4,500 customs officers across Canada, working at 6 major airports, and over a dozen busy border crossings, as well as four international mail centres, and various marine ports, and other ports of entry, sharing a border with a country with over 275 million in population, and where over 54% of households contain at least one firearm, and the #1 destination country for almost every drug there is, and for which we are usually a transshipment point, as well as the #1 destination for illegal immigrants worldwide.   Yes, we are quite busy sometimes, and it's very possible we may not get to every single shipment of dodgy mall knives coming in to the country.

It's good to know you guys are on the ball, keep up the good work (ie: one reason my country doesn't look like a Pakistani bazaar).  

PS:  The gorgeous girl working customs in YVR gave me a hard time, especially when I told her I was Army, did you leave her hanging or something? 

 

[Pugnacious]

Good info...

Yet strange how the American government keeps bitching about our weak border security.
I even read that the US is buying survalance drones from Israel to patrol both the South and the North of their borders.
And I also hear they are also fingerprinting Canadians visiting the US.

When are we going to do the same to them? 
IMHO they need to double you guys, and pay you better.

As far as e-quip goes..I have seen any cases goto court over the years and get thrown out for the silliest things.
I'm not worried about my folding knife...esp' when it is such a revolving door for real Hard core crimes in this country.

As a security guard try arresting the same person 2 twice per day for B&E, and watch the courts give him a slap on the wrist.
When it is a life time in prison offense.

Cheers!
P.

 

[portcullisguy]

Infanteer, it seems the best looking chicks in customs all seem to work in Pacific Region, and sadly I don't know any of them from YVR (except one who recently transferred to YYZ).  Actually she traded places with a friend of mine, who ain't half bad looking herself, but who went to a small land border out there.

But I digress.  What I was going to say was you broke the #1 rule in crossing the border ... NEVER, EVER go to a female customs inspector, if you have the choice.  Even the women I work with say that.  They mostly agree that they are a lot harder on people, although I don't care to speculate as to why.

Always go to a guy.

 

[Scott]

About kit inspections, we tore apart our rooms for 7 hours when one unlucky troop from our sister platoon "misplaced" the bolt from a C9. The staff and Redhats were present for our kit inspections.

Pictures, just go to Walmart and get a frame with the pic already in it. One of my cohorts did this to the ongoing amusement of the staff.

Oh, and for those of you who like to take souvenirs from your conquests with the ladies, you may not want to include these items in your personal kit. One Seargent found two such items in the possesion of a troop in the room across from me. There was stunned silence, mocking questions and the teasing he had to put up with after, don't draw attention to yourself.

 

[portcullisguy]

On my SQ/BIQ, one of our Sergeants was "unofficially" offering rewards for such evidence of exploits, and in particular, if it were to cause you to be later or more hung over than him the next day.  Of course, you'd still have to face the charge parade, but at least you could look forward to a beer or three being bought for you at the course party.

I'll never tell what regiment he was, but I can say it rhymed with "Argylls". 

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

And I also hear they are also fingerprinting Canadians visiting the US.

the u.s. is not fingerprinting cdn citizens, just everybody else.  plus it is more like a fingerprint scanner anyway.  fingerprinting everyone would take forever.

 

[Pugnacious]

Ahh gotcha...the other day I saw the fingerprint scanner on the TV news...good thing as that Black ink normaly used is a real 'B-word' to clean off of stuff. ;D

Also my wife is already  a hot cougar so I'll save the frustration, and bring a pic of my dogs.

Cheers!
P.

 

[kiltedtradesman]

Just spit on you fingers to wet them and the ink comes off easier with the paper towel.  Just make sure when you spit, most of it lands on their counter or the paper work on the counter.

 

[homerjsimpson]

Most of these responses are the reason why the Canadian Army is goint to shit.

 

[Da_man]

Bring anything you want.  As long as it fits in your kit bags during inspection, they dont give a shit.

 

[AndrewWGrieve]

Someone mentioned that they were going to Summer Training Company in Chilliwack this summer.  I believe the rule for STC, in accordance with the standing orders, is no knives over six inches.