Best Air Support ?

[karl28]

                    I hope that when they finally retire the old CC-130 that they will put at least one of them in the  museum at 8-wing Trenton  as a static display  be a nice addition considering how many years  they have flew out of Trenton .

 

[FuzzyLogic]

This may be slightly off topic, but the lead story this morning on my site is about CC-130s in Afghanistan:

http://www.mediaright.ca

 

[peaches]

The whole idea about AC130's for Canada is not a bad one.  In a perfect world we could buy 4 or 5 AC130u's, & assign them to 427 Special Ops Sqn to work with the Blackhawks &/or Chinooks that would (should in a perfect world)  also be assigned to 427 sqn.  Before you know it we'd have a real spec ops sqn 

The truth is there is no imagination or willingness at higher levels to do such a thing....

 

[GO!!!]

The whole idea about AC130's for Canada is not a bad one.  In a perfect world we could buy 4 or 5 AC130u's, & assign them to 427 Special Ops Sqn to work with the Blackhawks &/or Chinooks that would (should in a perfect world)  also be assigned to 427 sqn.  Before you know it we'd have a real spec ops sqn 

The truth is there is no imagination or willingness at higher levels to do such a thing....

Yes, we could consolidate every rotary wing asset in Canada in one place, and they would only ever work with one unit, and they would get all the training and kit and money....

Because we all know the only people who will ever need a helo extraction/insertion or a fire mission from an AC-130 work hand in hand with 427.

The rest of the scum can make do with Griffons, MLVWs and 60mm.

Thank god there is not willingness to do it!

 

[peaches]

GO!!

As a former AWCAS guy very famil with CAS & air support to the army I would NEVER suggest anything that dumb.  They UASF spec ops guy are the ones that use the AC130, they are not assigned to every division/brigade etc, they have attack helos & A10s.

No we should not consolidate our helos in one place for a selected few, thats crap, totally.  Our Air Force needs serious overhaulling, starting with more people, not nessacerraly more equip, just the right equip.

Right now the CF has 85 Griffons according to the AF website, would not 85 Blackhawks do a better job.  What abot 30 Apaches & 55 Chinooks, just thinking out loud here.

We need to re-align the AF to better support army ops, we need to start somewhere.

 

[geo]

Replace those apaches with Cobras like the USMC continue to use.  Lot less technical and can operate out of harsher environments.  If I remember, Apaches has a big problem in Iraq GW1 and 2 with the rotors being sandblasted down to their composite fibres.

 

[peaches]

I agree, Cobra's would most likely be better.  Would be easier to swallow politically as Bell Helos make Griffons, could also make Cobras for us.  Bristol Aerospace in Winnipeg overhauls USMC Cobra engines I believe.  Cobra would also be easier to deploy, lighter, can easily fit in C130 and C17, sling it under a Chinook

My whole point is that the Air Force needs to better support army ops.  It is not the Air Force troops fault, we don't buy the equip, if we did it would not be as it is.  I have no doubt the crews would love new combat equip.  The Griffon is not a military helo, proof, non are in A-Stan evern doing medeveac, WHY??

We originally purchased 100 Griffons to replace 68 Kiowas, 50 Hueys, & 8 Chinooks, 126 helos total.  Instead of 100 Griffons why not 20 Chinooks, 50 Blackhawks & 40 Cobra/Apache.

Go to an airshow with CF Cobras, Blackhawks & Chinooks, there will be young folks who want to join and fly/fix them.  Awsome equip is strong a recruiting tool.

 

[geo]

The airforce hasn't really been in a war fighting business for an awful long time.
After the CF18 project wound down, the gov't was more interested in maintaining transport capabilities.... not their fault.... though those air element CDS' shoulda / coulda spoken up a little bit more

IMHO

 

[peaches]

GEO,

Could not agree with you more.  I joined the AF in 1988, was in Lahr Germany first tour, it sorta felt like a combat AF.  Did not feel like an AF warrior again until I did my exchange with UASF in Oklahoma.  It all comes down to a mindset that is missing in our AF.  WE ARE A COMBAT AIR ARM.  Not too many AF people I have met think that way, I may have just met the wrong folks.

I did my C7 & NBCW training last month, listened to whining about "guns aren't my job" crap, & NBCW is someone elses problem.  "We are Air Force, we don't go to war" was another quote. Frankly, it made me sad that these people actually felt that way.  I told them a few stories about AWACS & war (although diff that ground combat, was a diff kind combat), about what happens if the base in God knows where you on is infiltrated or overrun.  Another comment, "why do I have to do a PT test, I have never had to chase a radar scope yet".  You should hear some of the b%^tching about CADPAT.

It all comes down to a mindset that most of our AF is missing BIGTIME!!  I talk with fighter pilots every day, they have the warrior mindset, but I have not heard it much from others in the AF.

As an AF officer, all my crew here in NB are C7 qual'd like it or not, I even managed to 9mm qual most.  They all do NBCW, land nav etc..  I can only do my part with what I have.

A small AF can be effective & lethal in combat, with the right mindset, which leads to the right attitude which leads to buying the right equip which leads on to using it properly.

 

[geo]

With Canada involved, like it or not, in a shootin war, the Army has certainly been forced to react and ramp up / brush up on old combat skills from before we were peacekeepers.  The Airforce, to date, has been employed as bus drivers (with only minor exceptions).  How do you develop a combat mindset when you are only doing long hauls.  Little by little, the Hercs are being used for Tactical airdrops, FAC teams are going out with the troops, looking at deploying "eye in the sky" technology AND the Chinooks for close "in your face" combat troop support.... yeah - think the AF will be shaping up sometime soon.

Chimo!

 

[peaches]

It will sadly be slow, hopfully those of my generation will change things when we become GOCs.  I canot give any guarentees, all I can do is my part in my corner of the AF.  When your flying a Chinook, that will help the mindset, when your supporting F18 ops in A-Stan that will help the mindset, when you deployed in ops with allies like the US, UK or Aussies, that will help the mindset.  Exchange with the USAF AWACS certainly re-aligned mine.  I have no doubt the herc folks in A-Stan have the mindset.  I will slowly filter down.

 

[aesop081]

.  The Airforce, to date, has been employed as bus drivers

The air force's combat power, which it had plenty of at one point, was decimated by successive governments who had bigger priorities. Even in the current environment, the government is allowing parts of the air force's fleet to rott...hard to keep a combat mindset this way.

 

[geo]

Cdnaviator...
Hey.... don't get me wrong - I figured that out for myself.  The army wasn't treated much better for as long as you.  Fortunately for us, our work is more manpower than anything else and didn't require quite as much $$$ to get us back into shape.

Lookin forward to being looked after by an agressively postured /angry bird

CHIMO!

 

[daftandbarmy]

Peaches,

You're not alone, the RAF had to create a whole 'army type' unit to guard their airfields - the RAF Regiment. And I can attest to the fact that the much vaunted RAF Harreirs need a kick in the a** when it comes to helpg out the 'green jobs'. As usual, the RNAS is much better.

At least in Canada we've stopped calling it 'Air Command'. The Air Force needs leaders like you! You've got the right attitude. Keep slogging away.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Peaches
If one day a Canadian Helo crashes in enemy territory and one of the guys you trained is able to fight back with the C7 you made them practice with, then it will be all worthwhile. I made my guys dig a lot in training, later one of them told me quietly that he was happy he knew how to dig a good trench when things got hot on a tour overseas.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Peaches
If one day a Canadian Helo crashes in enemy territory and one of the guys you trained is able to fight back with the C7 you made them practice with, then it will be all worthwhile. I made my guys dig a lot in training, later one of them told me quietly that he was happy he knew how to dig a good trench when things got hot on a tour overseas.

Somebody once made the comment that once you're down behind enemy lines ,weather you like it or not you've just joined the infantry. And If you don't starting thinking that way you will a very short if exciting future

 

[aesop081]

Somebody once made the comment that once you're down behind enemy lines ,weather you like it or not you've just joined the infantry. And If you don't starting thinking that way you will a very short if exciting future

Although i understand the meaning, i dont think the analogy is quite fitting.  Unlike an infantryman, a downed aircrew should be evading the enemy, not close with and destroy. Being able to use various weapons and protect yourself is indeed vital, i feel the same as peaches does, but its should be gear towards self-defense and evasive action.  The ultimate objective for a downed aircrew is to get him/herself into a postion where CSAR can do a recovery.

 

[Good2Golf]

Peaches
If one day a Canadian Helo crashes in enemy territory and one of the guys you trained is able to fight back with the C7 you made them practice with, then it will be all worthwhile. I made my guys dig a lot in training, later one of them told me quietly that he was happy he knew how to dig a good trench when things got hot on a tour overseas.

C8 thanks, CQB variant with 10" barrel and EOTech sight for daylight and NVG-compatible reflexive shooting ....along with my BHP and Tomahawk.  ;D

Not all airmen/airwomen/aviators are base/runway-bound folks...some are currently developing "shoot, move, communicate" skillsets...far more interactive with anticipated employment scenarios than just waiting for CSAR to arrive.  At the very least, downed aircrew must be transparent (burden-wise) to friendlies...the prefereable situation/mind-set would be to link-up with FF and shape how the recovery would unfold.  While I wouldn't say we automatically become infantry (because there is a huge skill-set and competentcy associated with being an infanteer) we would become a "soldier" (which some of us consider ourselves as, anyways.)

BTW, Air Command does still exist, as does Land Forces Command and Maritime Command.  The Strat/Op-level Commands (CanadaCOM, CEFCOM, CANSOFCOM and CANOSCOM) do not replace the environmental commands.

G2G

 

[Loachman]

Replace those apaches with Cobras like the USMC continue to use.  Lot less technical and can operate out of harsher environments.  If I remember, Apaches has a big problem in Iraq GW1 and 2 with the rotors being sandblasted down to their composite fibres.

The Griffon has plastic blades as well, although the leading edge is metal. Not that that means anything - the titanium leading edges of our Kiowas in 444 Squadron had been turned into cheese graters by the chemical and particulate pollution in the Rhine Valley.

The Zulu model Cobra's rotor blades are also composite, doubtlessly with a titanium leading edge as well as the rotor system is very similar to the Griffon's.

I would be rather skeptical of any claim that the desert environment would be kinder to one helicopter type rather than another. Dust and sand wears rotor blades and compressor and turbine blades, damages windscreens in a variety of ways, and accumulates throughout the fuselage, adding weight.

 

[Loachman]

I agree, Cobra's would most likely be better.  Would be easier to swallow politically as Bell Helos make Griffons, could also make Cobras for us.

"Another quality Bell product" is usually said dripping with sarcasm. Having somewhere around 5000 hours on Bell products, I have sort of of a love-hate thing going. Boeing made/makes stuff for us, too, which will include Chinook, so why would/should a Bell product be more attractive politically?

And everybody subcontracts anyway, so it probably doesn't make much difference from the Canadian industrial viewpoint.

Bristol Aerospace in Winnipeg overhauls USMC Cobra engines I believe.

That is unlikely to be a factor.

Cobra would also be easier to deploy, lighter, can easily fit in C130

Hah!! My guess is that you've never seen that done. Neither have I, but I have seen Twin Hueys put into Hercs in 1983. It wasn't "easy", requiring the removal of the main rotor and mast, with re-assembly and test-flying on the other side - requiring cranes and specialized tools plus a day or two to carry out. They barely fitted into the Hercs (scant inches of clearance inevery direction), and one out of three was damaged and required a couple of months to fix.

and C17,

Between AH1Z and AH64, there's probably not a lot of difference. Being designed for shipborne ops, Cobra's blades fold relatively easily. What Apache's are like, I admittedly do not know. We can fold the blades on Griffon, but it's not something that one would want to do everyday.

sling it under a Chinook

Not if you want a reasonable chance of ever flying it again.

My whole point is that the Air Force needs to better support army ops.  It is not the Air Force troops fault, we don't buy the equip, if we did it would not be as it is.  I have no doubt the crews would love new combat equip.  The Griffon is not a military helo, proof, non are in A-Stan evern doing medeveac, WHY??

What needs to happen is for Tac Hel to move back into the Army, from whence it came and where it rightfully, naturally, and logically belongs. And equipment procurement needs to be done logically and honestly, based upon military requirements and not political whim and arbitrary money caps - which is how we got Griffon. As for Griffon in Afghanistan, is there a need for more casevac hels there? Supporting any CF tac hel operation there is going to be a huge problem anyway, given the disruption that the TUAV operation is going to have throughout our little community. We are pulling pilots and techs and a few other support types off of helicopters for TUAV mission planning and maintenance. We do not have enough bodies to support both ops in theatre. True, Griffon is a civilian helicopter painted green, but the Twin Huey, which was the military version, is not being operated there either to the best of my knowledge. There are not many helicopters, military or civilian, that will work well at those temperatures and altitudes. There is a reason that Chinook is in such great demand. Black Hawk is the premier utility helicopter, but are they used for anything more than casevac in Afghanistan?

We originally purchased 100 Griffons to replace 68 Kiowas, 50 Hueys, & 8 Chinooks, 126 helos total.

We started out with 75 Kiowas, and all three fleets had sustained losses over the years.

Instead of 100 Griffons why not 20 Chinooks, 50 Blackhawks & 40 Cobra/Apache.

Aside from minor adjustments to your numbers for tactical, training, and attrition calculations - politics and money.

Go to an airshow with CF Cobras, Blackhawks & Chinooks, there will be young folks who want to join and fly/fix them.  Awsome equip is strong a recruiting tool.

Now there's a solid basis for acquisition.

And it reminds me too much of a Ray Henault quote from the late eighties - but that's another rant.