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Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

  • Thread starter Thread starter pcain
  • Start date Start date
Britney, I concur.  The reality of the enemy starting their attack 30ft feet out by charging is very, very unlikely.  I think the reason why the drill was conceived was to show that other tactics must be practiced because actual engagement ranges (for LEO's at least) is much shorter than that, and what may work on the 50' square range will probably suck at 5' with the guy trying to kill you.
 
I have tried a version of that 30ft drill when caught doing IA/stoppages during  house to house (exercise), it turns out my instinctive reaction was to but-stroke the OPFOR (sorry 'bout that Dale, but you did surprise me ;D).  My pistol may as well have been in the armoury, it never occurred to me to go for it.  If I would have had a bayonet mounted, well, Dale might have something really interesting to show off in the mess, rather than just a concussion.  I don't doubt that some of my secret squirrel friends could have drawn and capped the OPFOR before he closed, but the pistol never even crossed my mind until after the OPFOR was down.
 
Simplify the CQB with your side arm.  The "222" rule
In 2 Seconds, Draw and fire 2 Rounds at figure11  2 feet (try 2 meters as well)away.
Chest shots from the hip are best, even if wearing vest you can knock them off balance to get a clean head shot.

If you got it, practice with it!  Know one can predict exactly what is going to happen.  There are enough Movies and Solider Stories to prove that. :salute:

Bayonets for option of taking out sentries, or is everyone issued with silencers to take everyone out that is awake and can hear the "zip"

"The more you Sweat in training the less you Bleed in Combat" to quote an advertisement I saw. ;)
 
I have never mounted my  bayonet on my  weapon other than in drill classes  or on parade.  did use to probe for militia mines during CAC 89 in  Petawawa.  I do not see why they  would get rid of it, it has proven its value  when needed.
there was a story  in the newspapers during the Gulf War 1 about a group of Americans clearing trenches with armoured dozers with a multi barrelled machine gun, they  broadcasted a warning  over a loud speaker, telling the soldiers to surrender or meet their maker.
they  lined a dozer up and it was pushing dirt into the trench system and a gunner was firing the machine gun infront of the dirt that was filling in the trench as it drove along the trench system.
The media was making a huge stink about it , the US Forces had  PR team trying to put a positive spin on the story. The PR company was blowing it, offering all sort of excuses  why they  did it that way.  Finally  a full Colonel had enough and explained it like this to the media.
Using a dozer and a machine gun made more sense to him then sending young American Sons into the trenches and using  a pig sticker to force the ememy  out of the the trench system. To him it meant less letter writing home to family  members of killed Us Soldiers.

The bayonet might be replaced by newer weapons but the fear  having a knife  or bayonet plunged into you is much scarier then being shot. It is a much more personal way  to kill your ememy. you have to look in his or her eye to use it.  I had an old RSm his words on bayonet fighting  was  like this  1) never bring a knife to a gun fight, 2) never worry  about the pro knife fighter he will kill you,  the wanna be kniife fighter will slice and dice you  but you  will recover and be scarred 3) bayonet is a last resort weapon when all else fails.
 
Hello guys, been a while. ;D

Just been reading this thread in its entirety.  Find myself siding with Capt. O'Leary and vonGarvin.  A knife of suffiicient heft and weight is always a useful thing, even if it is just for opening rations, pyro boxes or hacking down a few branches to create some support for expedient overhead protection - though I understand branches might be in scarce supply in Afghanistan.  If a knife is to be carried then why not a knife that can be stuck on the end of the rifle.  As others have noted it fixes the mind wonderfully, both the attacker and the defender and the muggins in the crowd. 

In fact given the shortness of the modern rifles I have often wondered whether there isn't cause to revert back to the era of the Baker rifle of 1805.  The rifle was to be employed at long range.  CQB was not anticipated for the riflemen of the day.  However surprises occur and to accomodate surprises the Rifles were issued a bayonet.  The rifle was actually shorter than the muskets of the day (steel hafted pikes really).  It was felt that this put the riflemen at a disadvantage to the regular infantry and so they were supplied with longer bayonets - long enough that when supplied with a working hilt, unlike the bayonets, that they could be used as swords, and were called such.

Anybody feel like carrying a pointy blade the length and heft of a machete that could be stuck on the end of the rifle if necessary?  By the way Kukris are nasty things and very hard to master.  I have an issue WWII copy picked up in Ismailia in 1946.  Round, slippery wooden hilt - very hard to control the blade.

One further point on the PWRR assault on the "trench".  Many stories on this assault out there but I remember posting an article describing the assault.  The trench was a ditch beside the road. No zig-zags, no independent slits, no obstacles.  The actual assault element of the platoon was a single brick of four that was taken in tow by a Corporal, presumably the section commander.  The impression given was that the enemy force was flanked by the Corporal and his brick while the rest of the platoon, mounted in Warriors, put down suppressive fire. 

In a narrow linear feature like a ditch there is only room for one or two men to face off against each other at any given time.  It becomes "Horatio at the bridge" in reverse.  The Iraqis could have had a company of their own men armed to the gills and just had to wait until their turn came to get a shot at the Corporal's brick. Other options include shooting their own men in the back to get a better shot at the Corporal or else jumping up out of the ditch to be able to shoot down on the Corporal and his troops.  Did I mention the Warriors giving covering fire?  Another option for the Iraqis could have been to run away down the ditch giving the Corporal the opportunity to shoot them in the back.

Once the Corporal was in the ditch all fighting would have occurred within the 30 foot range. When Corporal runs out of ammunition he relies on guys behind to step up and start shooting.  Swinging point and butt likely generated some elbow room allowing "passage of lines" as well as maintaining momentum.  As Corporal passes over recently shot body soldier behind bayonets individual on ground to finish him off.  Corporal would not be best pleased if soldier behind put a round of 5.56 (or even 9 milli) into Corporal's backside. Solidier behind more likely to hit desired target with bayonet reducing the risk of collateral damage to Corporal.

Calls for speculation on some points here admittedly, but drawn from accounts with a bit of knowledge of history - look to WWI trench raid accounts - Lee-enfields with fixed bayonets traded for shotguns, hand grenades and knives.

By the way, prior to that action the PWRRs and the Argyll's were being heavily engaged by the enemy with daily shellings.  After the engagement enemy activity in the area apparently died down considerably.  Probably coincidental.

But perhaps there is something to be said for meeting an besting the enemy on his own terms, face to face in a knife fight.  After all many of the west's enemies make much of the fact that the western way of war currently involves killing large numbers from great distances.  While this saves western lives and makes tactical sense it allows the otherside to convince themselves, their supporters and a considerable body of uninformed, if not hostile international opinion that we in the west are cowards.  That we are not willing to make the sacrifices necessary. 

Perhaps the Corporal's little rampage helped to establish a degree of moral superiority locally.

Just more grist for the mill guys - not picking a fight (unless someone wants one ;D ;))

Cheers, Chris.


 
Don't forget Iwo Jima. Those boys did some serious knife fighting in dug in positions. History has a way of repeating itself if you don't learn the lessons. Obiously handguns would be very effective or the old trench broom (shotguns).
Cheers
 
Here's a shot of Paras doing some FISH (Fighting in Someone's House). If you watch carefully, you will see the bayonet attached to the commander's rifle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXmMIxYTZyk&eurl=
 
The FISH video brings back an earlier use of the bayonet, for convincing someone that they want to get the f%#k out of your way, and for giving them an encouragement somewhere between shouting and shooting in its firmness.  Do you want to be killing everyone you see?  Maybe, maybe not.  Do you want to discuss matters while house clearing?  Hell no!  The bayonet is useful for getting non-combatants, or undecided belligerents to come to Jesus without having to visit him (as one of my WO's used to describe it).  It's also nice to have an alternative when someone pops between you and your rifle team partner, and you really don't want to test his tac-vest on the through-and-through for the Timmy that just jumped between you.  Say what you will about bullets vs bayonets, a bayonet stops six inches past the barrel, and a 5.56 is just begun to bounce.
 
::)  Dudes the bayo has gone the way of the dodo.

Muzzle strikes are much more effective at getting people to obey -- and you dont stick a knife in them (always bad with the imbedded crowd we have these days...

Consider the section's we have now - 4 bayo's are LOST due to the M203 and C9.
The C8SFW loses 1.5" of knife blade when one attaches a bayonet.


Anyone taking a bayonet into a house for MOUT is a MORON -- you want the smallest weapon profiel to reduce to AOA to a doorway or obstacle.

  The Term FISH was a Lightfighter joke
 
I-6makes a very good point.  For all intents and purposes, the bayonet is up there with the Catapult.  Did it serve its purposes?  Naturally!  Could it still work today?  Certainly, but not for us, and for the very reasons I-6 points out above.  Attaching a bayonet is fine, but when you add all the necessary "stuff" (such as M-203, frikkin' lasers and all that...), well, it just doesn't cut it (pun intended). 
Personally, I like bayonets.  Not for the killing they can do, but for the morale effect on the holder.  Adds to the "killing spirit", no?  Perhaps the romantic in me ("Gleaming bayonets!"), but when it's time to say good bye, it's time.  Too bad, we finally have a bayonet that doesn't fall apart when you look at it sideways.


Just my $0.02 worth


Now, where's my hover tanks?  Get them, and the wheel/track debate is OVER ;)
 
My bayonet never left my barrack box.  I-6 got me a nice folder a couple years ago for X-mas that  opens my rations real well.  I just don't hold with humping any piece of gear no matter how small or light that 's only purpose is to get me a posthumous award.  Nobody is ever going to let you mount one for crowd control, if they ever even use you for crowd control. Mout, well there just aint enough room in there for the both of us.

Hovertank good, bayonet hangs on wall
 
Interesting AAR about the USMC battle in Hue during the Vietnam War.

I remember that we studied this AAR with great interest in the UK in the 80s as this was one of the few examples of serious FIBUA conducted by allied forces since WW2 or Korea. As a result, we sometimes fixed bayonets during general war FIBUA training (a problem if you're using blanks though) and ran some 'indoor bayonet assault courses' that were quite exciting (to say the least). We also took our bayonets to Northern Ireland, but only used them for whacking bushes etc, and never trained to use them during riot/ crowd control operations.

19.FIX BAYONETS: In Hue we experienced a number of very close encounters with NVA soldiers inside buildings or when turning into alleys or hallways. These EYEBALL-TO-EYEBALL MEETING ENGAGEMENTS HAPPEN ALL THE TIME and Marines need to be prepared for instant action. The best insurance is to HAVE YOUR BAYONET FIXED and to be prepared to deliver a quick, decisive thrust at the face or chest. If you don’t kill him, you’ll scare the hell out of him and cause him to retreat rapidly. This happened at least twice that I know ofon the south side resulting in a wild hand-to-hand melee that could have been avoided and decided in the Marines’ favor with a quick bayonet thrust.
 
Frankly I dont understand some of the AAR --
IF I was ready to make a quick desisive thrust I would not be ready to shoot...
  Some moron jumping me with a knife if going to get a bunch of rounds into them -- I will take the cut (I wear plates on my chest - and with my weapon infront of me shooting I'd bet a case of beer that Mohammed is not going to be sticking me in the eye.

Just my $0.02

I am no longer a soldier.
  But I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express



 
"By the push of the bayonets, no firing till you see the whites of their eyes."

Frederick the Great, King of Prussia (1712-1786)
In the battle before Prague, during the Seven Years War.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet


Anyone had problems with our C7 bayonets breaking? They seem to snap like twigs, far less sturdy than the old C1 bayonet...


 
The new bayonet is fine, much better then the old one.

But as Jay says, things get tight in there. Imagine wearing about 100lbs of gear, then hunching through Yoda's door. Now add several inches of 'pointy' to get bunged on something. We were told to practice 'muzzle contacts' by the Americans we RIP'd with because close in fighting would happen. And it did.

I think everyones issue is the possibility of a stoppage at that critical moment in close quarters. We practice some great remedy drills with Gunfighter, not to mention, as Canadians we kinda specialize in fighting each other with our fists or whatever is handy.

Ounces make pounds, and that's another half liter of water I carried without it.
 
boondocksaint said:
as Canadians we kinda specialize in fighting each other with our fists or whatever is handy.

Ounces make pounds, and that's another half liter of water I carried without it.
Two very good points, pun intended!
 
Besides how do I fit a bayonet on this  ;)

Workgear.jpg


and it hangs out a bit below my Tux  ;D
Iraq013.jpg
 
Put the bayonet on the side of your headset, pointed towards the bad guys, so that you can head butt them ;)
 
Remember taking my JLC in Lahr a few decades ago. Doing crowd control practise using some soldiers as practice crowd. As the crowd gets unruly our fellow student platoon leader says "Mount bayonets" or something to that effect. So shortly thereafter a demonstrator swings a 2x4 at me and it gets stuck on the end of my bayonet.  Ever try to get a 2x4 off a bayonet in a crowd.  ;D
 
Ever try to get a 2x4 off a bayonet in a crowd.?

Fire a bullet!!!  (note - this might not be a DS solution)
 
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