ATV RECCE TRIALS

[George Wallace]

Not a serious problem.

The LAV 25 is first generation.  It is amphibious.  The USMC use them and are now currently looking at replacing them.

The Coyote is second generation.  It can not swim, which many of us who have done Recce feel is a requirement.  We are the only ones using it.  It has sever limitations in what it can do in the Recce role.  It has a marvelous surveillance suite, but is not a Recce vehicle.

The LAV III is used by the Infantry.  It is much quieter than the Coyote, but also much larger.  The US Army has bought a different variant of this vehicle and call it the Stryker.

Like the Bison and other variants of the Second Generation of LAV, which we do not go around calling LAV IIs, we do not call our LAV IIIs Strykers.  They are a different breed.

GW

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ahhh, and young grasshopper recieves another lesson in posting information he has not researched. Plainly newbies, if you are only stating something you've heard or don't have data to back your claim, don't post it. It will result only in your future posts lacking credibility. Older and wiser personell here will quickly call your bluff and make you look silly.

 

[Gayson]

And so I learned a good lessom! 

 

[ackland]

And so I learned a good lessom!    

Seems as though you have not. Judging by your other posts. you seem to want to spout off about all things you don't really have any idea about. you seem to want to give advice to reg for recruits when you are a what 10 month old reserve soldier who is not even qualified as a recce crewman yet. How do you get the cahonas to give others advice when you aren't qualified yourself?

 

[DOOG]

GW and all..
I tryed to reply to this item sooner but I must have pushed the wrong button.
I believe the g-wagens used by Recce units should be the armoured version just so that they train on what they will deploy in. I don't know if the roof and superstructure come off of the non-armoured/protected version, but if it does then people will take it off and do recce with it. Then when they deploy/use a C and R version it will be like converting to a totally new vehicle. Lets not forget the "tank trainer" days.

As for the distance between the CC and the front of the vehicle, I don't recall either the Ferret CC or the Lynx CC being all that close to the front. There are couple of monuments across the parking lot here, perhaps I will measure them. I believe that when I did a blind corner I would attempt to angle the vehicle so that it was more or less pointed down the road in the direction of the turn, then sent a dismount before sticking much/any vehicle around it. I don't see that being much different in a G-Wagen.

My 2 cents

 

[ackland]

Sounds like sound logic to me DOOG

 

[George Wallace]

GW and all..
I tryed to reply to this item sooner but I must have pushed the wrong button.
I believe the g-wagens used by Recce units should be the armoured version just so that they train on what they will deploy in. I don't know if the roof and superstructure come off of the non-armoured/protected version, but if it does then people will take it off and do recce with it. Then when they deploy/use a C and R version it will be like converting to a totally new vehicle. Lets not forget the "tank trainer" days.

The Reserves should work on the C & R version of the GWagen.   That however is not what the young fella said in his comments.   He thought that it would be good to also have the "Armoured" package too.   There is no requirement in Canada for the Reserve to have up-armoured vehicles.   There are not enough as is for deployment.

As for the distance between the CC and the front of the vehicle, I don't recall either the Ferret CC or the Lynx CC being all that close to the front. There are couple of monuments across the parking lot here, perhaps I will measure them. I believe that when I did a blind corner I would attempt to angle the vehicle so that it was more or less pointed down the road in the direction of the turn, then sent a dismount before sticking much/any vehicle around it. I don't see that being much different in a G-Wagen.

The crew in a Ferret are in the front half of the vehicle.   The CC in a Lynx is still forward of the "middle line" of the vehicle.   In Cougars, Coyotes, and LAV III you will find the Turret is back of   center, some more so than others.   Try doing the Blind Corner Drill with one and you will completely expose your vehicle.   Same on Crests--you will be "Tracks Up" everytime.   The G Wagen with a hatch in the rear (HIR) for a MG is not where you want you want your Commander.

GW

 

[ackland]

The Reserves should work on the C & R version of the GWagen.  That however is not what the young fella said in his comments.  He thought that it would be good to also have the "Armoured" package too.  There is no requirement in Canada for the Reserve to have up-armoured vehicles.  There are not enough as is for deployment.

Yeah but as far I am aware the C and R version comes up armoured any way and the reserves might as well get used to practicing on the thing.

 

[DOOG]

Me again..
I have not been briefed up on the G-Wagon so I don't know the whole story. Are there a non-armoured version and an armoured version of the C and R truck? I just took it for granted that the C an Rs were all armoured.

Now that I think about it, your probably right about the CC position and the blind corners and all that. Guess we'll just have to train for it.

I remember when we used to keep our heads down at hatch level. The boys tell me that at the School this summer they were standing up on the turrets to check over the crest..??

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Not a serious problem.

The LAV 25 is first generation.   It is amphibious.   The USMC use them and are now currently looking at replacing them.

The Coyote is second generation.   It can not swim, which many of us who have done Recce feel is a requirement.   We are the only ones using it.   It has sever limitations in what it can do in the Recce role.   It has a marvelous surveillance suite, but is not a Recce vehicle.

The LAV III is used by the Infantry.   It is much quieter than the Coyote, but also much larger.   The US Army has bought a different variant of this vehicle and call it the Stryker.

Like the Bison and other variants of the Second Generation of LAV, which we do not go around calling LAV IIs, we do not call our LAV IIIs Strykers.   They are a different breed.

GW

Sorry, but you're wrong on this one if you think they're being replaced anytime soon.   The LAV will be in service here in the US Marines until 2025.   It was originally planned on being replaced in the 2015 timeframe, but has gotten pushed back to 2025.  What is being touted as the replacement to the LAV as well as M1A1 MBT in the Marine Corps is the "Expeditionary Family of Fighting Vehicles"/EFFV  which is being merged with the US Army's Future Combat System/FCS, however this is all still at the preliminary design/initial pre-prototype demonstration model stage and alot can and will happen between now and the time this platform is in service that the LAV family will have to deal with.

All our LAVs are currently undergoing a Service Life Extension Program/SLEP that is upgrading their hull and some of the FCS components through Metric Systems Corp.

As well as the hull upgrades, a Improved Thermal Sight System/ITSS by Raytheon is also planned for the LAV-25.

The LAV-AT (TUA) variants are to be either upgraded or replaced.   The Marines are looking at replacing the M-901 Emerson turret with the GDLS ATGM turret, or retiring the ATs and replacing them with the 25 turret with TOWs on the side, or using HMMWV mounted TOWs for LAR anti-armor assets)

The LAV Mortar is to have the 81mm replaced with either the 120mm Dragonfire or 120mm Royal Ordnance/Delco turreted mortar on a new LAV chasis.

The LAV-C2 (CP) is also having the guts of its command and control equipment replaced with a net-centric type system that will also allow the vehicle to be mobile rather than stationary to conduct long-range communications.

A follow-on to SLEP will be the likely replacement of the 25mm M242 with the 30mm Bushmaster II and replacing the turret's hydraulic drive with an electric system.

 

[PrivateSparky]

Hey. I'm from the Ontario Regiment.

These ATV's are the perfect area and route recce vehicle. Sure the driver may not be able to break contact while returning fire.   But these things sure buzz around faster then any other veh i've seen. But in such circumstances as withdrawl under contact, thats what the 2-ups are for   ;D Little crazy for the passenger but alot of fun.

There are also little advantages here and there about having ATV born Recce.  (Don't get me wrong.  I'd rather have armour).  In a normal patrol, 2 veh's right.  Its alot harder to kill 6 moving targets then two, even though they're ATV's. 

I've never had a problem mounting any of my kit to the veh.  There have been ex's where I've ridden around with a C9 on my back ready to go. Hop off and there we go.

But yeah.  The army paid for us to be bad - arse bikers

!! KEEP THE JEEP !!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There's no real advantage to having the armoured G Wagon for training. The major difference between the two, it's just a little heavier and you can't roll down the windows. No big deal.

As to blind corners, the normal drill is for the veh(s) to stay back behind the corner under cover, while the dismount goes through the corner and looks down the route. Once they report it clear, the veh moves around the corner, pick up the dismount and carry on. No need to expose the veh at all. Same with crest drills, if your unsure, dismount and have a look. We're getting lazy, time to move back to basics.

Standing up on the turret this summer was not considered a big deal. The Cougar was being used as a recce platform. The gun and turret in effect, were'nt there. Standing on the turret just gave you more height to see over the crest without exposing the veh. Same as standing up on the hood of the Iltis.

 

[12alfa]

There's no real advantage to having the armoured G Wagon for training.

Boy have we heard this one alot!

Sure there is. Why would we train on a piece of kit we would not deploy on. Do you train on lsvw's to deploy in coyote's?

It's a cop-out, has been and still is.

When and if we had to deploy , we would have to train on the armoured type, granted it's not a lot of trg'ing but still the dr still has to get used to the extra weight and how it handles, the crew on how they operate in a veh that the windows don't go down etc.

This extra trg'ing required takes away for the other trg'ing time we would need for deployment, the extra time means extra money, instructors, gas, and on and on.

Train as yo fight, fight as you train, anything else is BS!
But hey we do it because we have allways done it this way, some things never change, and people's view on this don't change it seems.

Lets see the regs train in the milcots and then deploy in coyote's, think there would be much biching?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sure there is. Why would we train on a piece of kit we would not deploy on. Do you train on lsvw's to deploy in coyote's?

When and if we had to deploy , we would have to train on the armoured type, granted it's not a lot of trg'ing but still the dr still has to get used to the extra weight and how it handles, the crew on how they operate in a veh that the windows don't go down etc.

Your comparing lemons (LSVW) to pears (Coyote). The GWagons, armoured and unarmoured are more like, Delicious apples and MacIntosh apples, both apples and damn close in characteristics.

You didn't run around with your Cougar completely bombed up all the time. Your D&M course didn't have all the kit and guns loaded up. Quit talking about weigh and how it affects the vehicle. Drivers adapt and it's your responsibilty as the CC to control and guide him.

I would be more interested to see the Armoured units get their conversion to Recce done properly first. If you want to train like your in an armoured GWagon, simple, don't roll the window down. It's the same identical truck, just a little lighter. The armoured package is not a big deal for training. Wait til you get some time on the vehicle before you shoot it down. Just get it first, start training, then worry about trying to get the armoured package. The talk is for all Res Armd Recce units to get the Iltis, while waiting for the G Wagon. You gonna say " Piss on it, I'm not doing anything till they give me an armoured G Wagon? Keep bitching you want the fancy toys, and your apt to be waiting a long time for anything. Long enough maybe you'll be turned into an NBC Unit. By all means, keep complaining, but don't short your Regt's training while you tilt at windmills. Write it up and send it up. Vent here all you want, we don't run things. Your not going to change PMO LUVW's mind at this point. Just get on with it. There's lots to do for conversion without worrying whether your windows go up or down. Don't worry it's air conditioned.  

 

[12alfa]

Your comparing lemons (LSVW) to pears (Coyote). The GWagons, armoured and unarmoured are more like, Delicious apples and MacIntosh apples, both apples and darn close in characteristics.

You didn't run around with your Cougar completely bombed up all the time. Your D&M course didn't have all the kit and guns loaded up. Quit talking about weigh and how it affects the vehicle. Drivers adapt and it's your responsibilty as the CC to control and guide him.


This is just what we got when runing a d&m cource with Cougars and the Grizz, "it's the same veh, there is no difference", ya sure. Now you and I both know that you can get in trouble a lot faster in a cougar with a 19 year old in the middle of the trg area in pich black, compared to the Grizz, don't we?

Weigh does matter when fully loaded, and as you know I would think , when in the field we load the veh's down, did with jeeps, and the Iliis, can't see how the G-wagon will be any different, or has the kit list srunk?


I would be more interested to see the Armoured units get their conversion to Recce done properly first.

I too want to see this.

If you want to train like your in an armoured GWagon, simple, don't roll the window down. It's the same identical truck, just a little lighter. The armoured package is not a big deal for training. Wait til you get some time on the vehicle before you shoot it down.

Not shootin, look at what I posted, concerned about proper trg'ing, thats all.

Just get it first, start training, then worry about trying to get the armoured package. The talk is for all Res Armd Recce units to get the Iltis, while waiting for the G Wagon. You gonna say " Piss on it, I'm not doing anything till they give me an armoured G Wagon? Keep bitching you want the fancy toys, and your apt to be waiting a long time for anything. Long enough maybe you'll be turned into an NBC Unit. By all means, keep complaining, but don't short your Regt's training while you tilt at windmills.


Never posted that, see above plz.

Write it up and send it up. Vent here all you want, we don't run things. Your not going to change PMO LUVW's mind at this point. Just get on with it.

Thats a given.

There's lots to do for conversion without worrying whether your windows go up or down.

I have been convered for a long time, in fact over 18 years in the recce role, been there done that, and doing it again.

Don't worry it's air conditioned.  

I'm not worried, I drive a Jeep, open for most of the year, I laugh when we drive with "tarps on", LOL

What concers me is proper training. Over the years I've seen what non-proper trg'ng can do. A 18/19 year old with a high veh in bad conditions (loaded down) can make more grey hairs on my head that i care to have.
There is no good reason but $ to train on equipment that we don't deploy in, or with.
As you know good drivers are a long time in the making, more so in the res's, we don't just do a 2 week course and PRESTO - a good driver in all conditions.By giving said drivers traing on equipment/veh's we won't use on operations/field/deployents is counter-productive I would think, and up's the chances for some thing bad to happen.

Train as you fight, fight as you train. Why is it so hard?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Cause your not gonna get it, for now. Live with it, and do the best you can.

We all hate the way we're treated and kitted, but for now you're not gonna change it. Soldier on. You're preaching to the converted. You've got a job, and that's training and converting your troops. The training aids are out of your control. Do the best you can with what you have. Maybe before we both hang it up, things will change, but I doubt it. Live with it, do the best you can, and hope it's enough. Instill the basics, and hopefully, the rest will take care of itself. We weren't here first and we won't be the last, all we can do is hope to make a mark.

 

[Kirkhill]

I am covering up and digging deep just now but here's my contribution anyway.

The point about the weight difference between the armoured and unarmoured versions and driver and CC training looks valid to me.  As valid as trying to teach MLVW drivers how to pick a route without getting bogged down.

For training purposes only couldn't you take the unarmoured version of the G-Wagen and load up a weight of sandbags equivalent to the weight of armour?  Put some on the floor in the back and some on the roof rack to approximate the weight distribution and the higher centre of gravity?

I know its not the same as driving the real thing but neither are simulators, simunitions and sub-calibre devices the same as firing full-bore ammuntion, and they serve a useful purpose.

Bye Bye now -  (ducks and runs away)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Kirkhill,

There's an excellent idea. No need to duck and run. There is a perceived problem, that may need a solution. Have to see how it would work, but at least it's an idea. Nothing worse than constant complaints without at least putting forward and idea or solution. If your going to identify a problem or make a complaint, you should at least have an idea as to a solution. It may not work, but your trying to help solve the problem.

 

[Mortar guy]

If I may throw my $0.02 in here for a second. Someone was wondering if all C&R LUVWs will come with the armoured package? We are buying 1159 LUVWs and only 170 armoured packages (which will be for deployed ops only). Also, as for the weight of vehicles and training drivers with that weight, in Kosovo we had Grizzlies with the add on ceramic armour and my vehicle had almost a ton of ammunition in it. My driver had no problem adjusting, nor did any other driver in the Coy. It just takes a little common sense. Thanks!

Alex

 

[12alfa]

It just takes a little common sense. Thanks!

Alex

Mmmmm, common sense, I'll have to check the DA, last time i checked the army did not have much to go around, think is was sent to a certian ad busness in Que, something about the PM's name on golfballs. I'll get back to ya soon.

The sandbay thing might work, seems strange, but workable.

We will get on with our task, but the info we r getting is making this look impossible from the equipment standpoint. We have some idea's, they are not pretty but doable, hope no-one is looking.
Saw my 1st G-wagon in Gagetown this weekend, I like them, so clean so square, so new.But sadly behind a fence, with those dam Milcots.

But being a jeep person I like any 4X4, go figure!