Army.ca and Wikipedia (to be deleted)

[big bad john]

Please withdraw my remarks

 

[a_majoor]

Do the Ruxted group's editorials count? We have seen guest editorials by Carolyn Parrish and Dr J.L. Granatstein published on that thread, and I believe at least one editorial was reprinted in a newspaper (someone needs to find the citation). As well, it was pointed out that at least one editorial was referenced in a MSM newspaper as well.

Every bit counts!

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

 

[Klc]

  The National Post article has a direct quote from the forums here.  Perhaps you could post the link there as well.

After reading the grounds the deletion is based on, If we are able to find the article and one other recognised media using a quote, it would constitute "Multiple non-trivial published works". The discussion would be over. If its worth the effort, of course.

 

[Trinity]

http://www.hilltimes.com/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2005/january/10/civ_circ/&c=1

This was already on our site in a different forum
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24900/post-146427.html#msg146427 (same link/article)

We are expressly mentioned and briefly discussed and explained.. not just a passing reference

 

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Re: Army.ca and the Media
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2005, 01:14:32 »
Reply with quoteQuote
The Hill Times, January 10th, 2005
CIVIL CIRCLES
By Paco Francoli
DART airlift to cost Ottawa $4.4-million: Department of National Defence
It will cost the federal government at least $4.4-million (U.S.) to charter two Russian Antonov aircrafts to deploy Canada's embattled Disaster Assistant Relief Team  ­ known simply as DART  ­ which has been under intense fire because it doesn't have access to its own long-range aircraft and has taken so long to make its way to Sri Lanka to assist in the tsunami disaster relief effort.

Five flights have been booked at a cost of $880,000 (U.S.) each, all operated by Polet Cargo Airlines from Voronezh Russia, confirmed the Department of National Defence (DND) last week.

This includes the cost of going through Canadian broker Sky Link Aviation out of Toronto which DND uses for all chartered aircraft movements.

The total cost of the mission to Ampara, a district of about 600,000 people on Sri Lanka's east coast, could reach as high as $20-million. Members of DART began deploying last Thursday and Friday to Ampara from Canadian Forces base Trenton outside Toronto. Two more flights are scheduled for Jan. 10 and 11, and more could follow which could increase the deployment costs further.

This will be only the third mission for DART which was created in 1997 amid high expectations. It was last used five years ago in Turkey which was savaged by a massive earthquake in 1999.

The team can operate field hospitals, purify water and repair basic infrastructure and communications. It has an annual budget of $250,000 and about 15 full-time staff. The government pulls in other Canadian Forces staff depending on needs.

Defence Minister Bill Graham gave DART the green light on Jan. 4 to deploy to Sri Lanka, more than a week after the disaster and after days of balking over whether to send the team of specialists drawn mostly from the Canadian Forces.

Former Canadian Forces staff have been highly critical of the federal government for taking so long to deploy DART.

Alain Pellerin, a retired colonel who is now executive director of the lobby organization Conference of Defence Associations, said the delay was caused by the fact the government has no long-range airlift capabilities.

"Without the means to transport, DART is really just a concept. And therefore it's something the government needs to address. If they're serious about using a force like DART to support their foreign policy they need to respond more rapidly with their own airlift," said Mr. Pellerin who retired from the Canadian military in 1996.

Mr. Pellerin noted that Ottawa's logistical problems are compounded by the fact there are only 16 available Antonov aircraft available for rental in the world right now.

"Obviously there is a lot of competition when something like that comes up. It's a little bit like a timeshare condo. Everyone wants it at Christmas time for skiing," he said.

Canada has nothing comparable to an Antonov. DART's needs could be accommodated in part by the Air Force's fleet of 32 C-130 Hercules, but these aging machines, most of which were purchased between 1960 and 1975, have been plagued with problems. Additionally, the Hercules are much smaller than the Antonov and would require several trips to do the job.

Canada also has five civilian A310 Airbuses which have been converted for military use, but again these aircraft are too small to carry DART's heavy equipment which includes large military vehicles.

Mr. Pellerin said that 19 of Canada's Hercules are "essentially non-operational" because they are so old. He added that the rest will reach their best-before date in about 10 years.

Mr. Pellerin said Canada should consider leasing or buying the Boeing C-17 Globemaster III cargo airplanes used by the U.S. and British military which are smaller than the Antonov but still effective for DART's long-range strategic airlift requirements. Each C-17 costs about $200-million.

Ironically, the federal government created DART nine years ago as a response to its delayed reaction to the United Nations-led relief effort in Rwanda in 1994. When then defence minister David Collenette launched DART, he said the new unit would be available for deployment within 48 hours and remain on the ground for up to 40 days.

Last week in an interview on CBC Newsworld, retired Lieutenant-Colonel Wayne Douglas, a former commander of DART, was asked if DART should have its own aircraft.

"It would be good," he replied, but then added diplomatically: "There are a lot of priorities that have to come into play and that may not be one of them at the moment."

On the internet, a number of Canadian Forces staffers were far more blunt in their assessments of DART when chatting on a popular public forum set up specifically for them.

"I was part of [DART] when it first got dreamed up. It seems to keep getting bigger and bigger, but no clearer focus," said a corporal who identifies himself only as Kevin B.

The forum, found at www.army.ca, has been around since 1993 and provides a gateway for anyone interested in the Canadian military. It is not sponsored or connected to the federal government. Most subscribers use aliases but identify themselves as current or former members of the Canadian military.

"DART is like my grandmother's living room furniture  ­ looks great, but for goodness sakes don't use it," wrote Bograt, an officer cadet.

After the Canadian government indicated it intended to send DART to Sri Lanka to help with the tsunami disaster, many subscribers logged on to the forum to slam the government for failing to properly fund and equip DART.

"I know same people that have said the DART is a good thing? We do require it. Every country has a DART. We just need the aircraft," lamented Recce41 who identifies himself as a warrant officer.

Many subscribers praised a recent editorial by retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie (who one subscriber called "Uncle Lew") who pointed out that the federal government is stuck leasing Antonov aircraft for DART at a time of high demand.

"We now have a major disaster, and with everyone and his dog renting from the same source, the price has skyrocketed," wrote Mr. MacKenzie.

The two massive Antonov aircraft charted by Ottawa, which dwarf most other planes, will load up with about 225 tons of equipment. It's a major job. The last time DART deployment to Turkey, military staff worked around the clock for over a week procuring and loading the Russian Antonovs with large vehicles and specialized equipment such as water-purification machines to prevent cholera.

Before DART deployed to Sri Lanka, a 17-member reconnaissance team was sent to Ampara to determine if Canadian assistance would be helpful. DART's commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Mike Voith, was part of that initial deployment which included 11 staff from DND, three from Foreign Affairs, two from CIDA, and one from the Canadian Public Health Agency.

The reconnaissance team will soon be joined by about 200 Canadian Forces soldiers, including about 40 medical professionals.

The DART serves four critical needs in emergencies:

* primary medical care;

* production of safe drinking water;

* a limited specialist engineer capability; and

* a command and control structure that allows for effective communications between the DART, the host nation, and the other agencies involved in the relief effort, including international organizations, non-governmental organizations and UN aid agencies.

francoli@hilltimes.com
The Hill Times

 

[Trinity]

BTW... I agree.. whether Wiki lives or dies.. doesn't matter

But.. it's become not a challenge against MD.. but against ourselves.

How notable are we?  I've actually enjoyed looking up and searching for
this information.  I don't think I'm the only one judging by this thread. 

So if it lives or dies it doesn't matter in the long run but who doesn't love a challenge?

 

[mcqueen]

After reading the grounds the deletion is based on, If we are able to find the article and one other recognised media using a quote, it would constitute "Multiple non-trivial published works". The discussion would be over. If its worth the effort, of course.

I'm thinking, along with Trinity's Hill Times gem and the others, that that would be it!  Well done all.  ;D

 

[big bad john]

I agree...I just don't like losing a fight no mstter how small, it irks

 

[Kirkhill]

This is an action that we can afford to ignore.  It won't affect the outcome of the war one iota.  It isn't even a skirmish in the war but a side action that would be nice to have but is really inconsequential.

+1

How many were like myself and blissfully unaware that we had a Wikipedia presence?  Do we get much in the way of re-directions  from the Wikipedia links?

Leave well enough alone.

 

[Franko]

Personally I don't care what other people think about the site.

Take it at face value and leave it at that.....that's my opinion. It stands on it's own feet without the aid of any other site...and will for the foreseeable future.

Never even knew we had a Wikipedia reference....nor do I care about it now.

My $0.02 worth.

 

[mcqueen]

Kirkhill,

If it's as relatively easy as posting a few links to army.ca  - why not?

 

[George Wallace]

Interesting question to ask Dorosh, is why he didn't complain about the page while he was a member of Army.ca and contributing to the Editing of that Army.ca page.  He knows of the reputation that Army.ca holds in the Media and is withholding it.  He even says that he has links to Army.ca on his webpages.  A question now is:  now that he is complaining and removing portions of it, is it ethical?  Would his "I Love Me" pages in Wikipedia stand up to the same challenges, and should someone place the same questions on it.  If a well established webpage like Army.ca can't have credibility on Wikipedia, why do his webpages?  Who has vouched for his credentials?  Lots of questions about him could be asked also.  I see in the discussions that most side with his 'legalese', but here are a moderate or two, and a supporter or two for the page.  

As is his antics are being recorded for posterity right here on this site, and as many say on the Wikipedia site, it is easily Googled.  I am sure that someone Googling Michael Dorosh will find these posts and how he was BANNED from this site for his antics, then went on a vindictive rampage on other sites to discredit Army.ca, but in the process drawing more attention to himself.  People on the Internet do with time find out who the credible Posters are and who the Posers and Trolls are.  With a few exceptions they can differentiate, with the odd exception being the Pro-Life guy who thought that the Onion was a factual publication.   ;D

 

[mcqueen]

Interesting point.  I noticed the same complaint on the Wikipedia site.  Why wait until now to bring it up, the anonymous poster wondered?  One thing I will say is that while researching the links to army.ca you'd think there would be many more considering there are 10,000+ members here.  Maybe we need to do a better job in the future of making the site and it's opinions known to the media, and take a more pro-active approach?

 

[the 48th regulator]

Well we are glad you're aboard mcqueen.  The more you can offer the better site can be.

dileas

tess

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I have to agree with RBD. Who really cares? I don't like what MD has done, and why, but so what? It hasn't damaged us, nor will it. As George said, it shows MD in his true light. There are more important things in life to worry about than what MD is doing, and how he is still twisting nipples. Like, does my lawn need mowing, grey socks or black, cherry popsicle or grape, the heady list goes on. MD is gone, let's put it behind and get on with keeping Army.ca THE premier military site on the web. If others want to re-establish our status on Wiki, go ahead, just keep it professional and the interaction with Dorosh to a minimum or nil. What happens there reflects here, and visa versa. Use this thread for strategy, being mindful of course that Dorosh can still read it and get the jump on your actions. Maybe the core of the members doing the work on this project should switch to PMs, but as I say, I wouldn't worry about getting to carried away with it. It's really not worth it.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I think we will all be better off if we even forget we have a Wiki entry, look at it this way, look at all the entries in the past that have been proven wrong by members of this very site. Sure its a good resource but when it comes to CF related, we are much better. We survived without them before we will again. Let our participation there die.

 

[Pearson]

http://grouper.com/video/MediaDetails.aspx?id=1468031

The truth speaks. 

 

[DG-41]

It survived the AFD process, notwithstanding the tireless efforts of MD to get it delisted.

Sometimes the good guys do win.

DG

 

[Trinity]

Well.. Dorosh has an appeal process it appears

I don't understand how he can claim this had nothing to do with being banned.

He was banned and that day or the next day he tries to delete the article.  The timing
is highly suspect on matter how you look at it.

 

[George Wallace]

It only make Frankie's post all that more relevant.  ;D