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Are the artillery pieces considered your colours and if so...

Scoobie Newbie

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Why are they not saluted when troops march past?  Specifically when they are surronding the main artillery building and don't deploy to the field.
 
They are considered "Field" pieces, unless on Parade.  Most large calibre guns/cannon are emblassoned with the Royal Cypher, even on tank barrels.

Artillery Pieces as monuments are like Regimental Colours, Standards and Guidons that have been 'retired' and put on public display until they disintergrate, and the same rules do not apply to them as do to the current Colours, Standard or Guidon.

Now I will have to look all that up.......more work........Did you ever notice work is a four letter word?

GW
 
Thanks for the summary.  This post comes from the fact that some 031 types where resting, leaning etc up against and artillery piece and got jacked because that is considered their colours.
 
CFL said:
This post comes from the fact that some 031 types where resting, leaning etc up against and artillery piece and got jacked because that is considered their colours.

Ah!  Therein lies the rub.  Gunners take great exception to people of any 'sort' resting/lounging on their Colours.  Young Gunners learn real quick not to lean on a Gun.  Running a few times around a Pde Sq with a 35 lb 'Spike' held above your head really weans you off resting on a Gun and leaves an indelible memory in you head to "Keep off the Colours". 

Gw
 
Hahaha  GW - truth be known, I have administered a few laps around the parade square, with "Mr. Happy" hoisted high above the head of the wayward Gunner.....  not a lot, mind you - but on occasion  >:D

From The Regiment's Standing Orders:

406. COLOURS
1. Traditionally, the colours of The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery are its guns.
They serve the same central role in pride and identity as do the guidons or colours of armour
and infantry regiments.
2. The custom of the guns being the colours of the artillery has its origin in the British
practice of designating the largest piece in an artillery train as the â Å“flag gunâ ?. This gun was
accorded the honour of carrying the equivalent of today's Queen's Colour. Use of the flag gun
has been recorded as early as 1722. Later, the guns themselves came to be regarded as the
colours of the artillery as gunners in battle rallied to their guns in the same fashion as regiments
of cavalry and infantry rallied to their colours.
3. The introduction of rockets and missiles has in some cases changed the nature of the
artillery's equipments. Consequently, the term â Å“gunsâ ? shall be deemed to include all weapon
systems of the artillery, other than small arms, used to inflict damage or casualties on the enemy.
Thus, rocket and missile launchers, despite not being inscribed with the Royal Cypher, will
be accorded compliments when they are on ceremonial parade with formed artillery units or
sub-units.
4. Compliments are not paid by the troops on parade to the guns during roll pasts or other
parade movements. The artillery has no equivalent to the â Å“Trooping the Colourâ ? ceremony. It
should be noted that spectators will pay compliments to the guns, as colours, during a roll past or
during similar movements on formal parades and ceremonies.
5. Although it may be impracticable in modern times to treat guns as colours in nonceremonial
circumstances, they must be accorded the dignity and respect they deserve. Such
practices as smoking on or near the guns, sitting or leaning on them, decorating them for social
occasions and leaving them unprotected are intolerable.
 
Past range control they are a tool and a means of delivery. To treat them otherwise in the field is dangerous.
 
Past range control they are a tool and a means of delivery. To treat them otherwise in the field is dangerous.

Is that the policy in your Regiment, Gunnerlove, or your own personal opinion?


Per #5 in the standing orders above, I'd be curious to hear your explanation as to why not allowing Gunners to smoke near the guns, sit on the trails, or lean on the upper shield flap would be "dangerous".....

Cheers

 
Does this mean that I will have to start saluting the 81mm mortars when the gunners are using them?

I guess only if the BAD is on them...
 
He probably means to a limit.


Obviously leaning against the trails/tires just to relax there is not to be done. But say standing on them to raise a camnet off the gun or for someone to spot the director(I've seen short number ones do this) in particulary over grown positions is tolerated, also I've seen some smaller gunners put a knee on the trail to look through the iron sights on the panoramic. Smoking around the gun is just stupid... the ammo is right behind the trails, an the charge bags are probably next to the tanoid.


 
For some guns its necessary to stand or sit on the trails. Example.....LG1, #3 sits on the trails when laying or firing, and some people, myself included use the trails to place the breech into position.  As for the mortor I hope that was sarcasim cause the mortors dont a cypher on it. so it really dont matter
 
For some guns its necessary to stand or sit on the trails.

That is obvious. After all, you sit in an M109...  As I pointed out before, the Standing Orders acknowledge that. They specify that "sometimes" it may be impractical to treat them as colours in non-ceremonial circumstances

Common sense would tell you that it is a gun, not a glass slipper. The intent is that you don't unnecessarily stand, sit, lean, puke, loiter, lay, stand, or  anything else on it.

The question was asked why people can't lean on them. It's a reasonable question. I answered it, per the Standing Orders of the Regiment, which I thought were clear, both in the intent, and the exceptions. Some of your answers are akin to saying that "Well, the Fire Department doesn't really have to take their hats off in the Mess, if they are dragging hoses and axes".... 
 
LOL I realized ur point in the post u made, and well being arty i know that too.  I was just puttin a reply to firepower thats all...
 
Probably from lack of sleep, but the standing orders struck me as an in-garrison, where you are working in the same area as the guns, an not saluting them like you would passing Infantry Colours.

And out in the field as, Gunnerlove stated, they become a tool, a weapon system.

Of course you still treat the gun with the same respect as you would in-garrison, but are afforded some leeway when the situation calls for it.

After reading through the last post the clarification was helpful.
 
The Guns are a means of delivery and the projectile is the weapon of the Artillery. The soldiers of past wars that risked their lives to save the Guns from the enemy would most likely disagree with you as saying they are only a tool. Blood, sweat and tears have been brought to bear on the Guns throughout past wars and to treat them as a simple tool is an understatement and a discrace to not only them but to the people who serve them. I never agreed with the rule's of not sitting on the Guns in the field or leaning on them. One thing I do remember is the fact that bad habits are hard to get rid of. A Gunner  who leans up against the wheel of a C3 and does so during firing charge 7 at a low trajectory is in for a real surprise and nice fall. we must treat the Guns with the utmost respect at all times and yes we do relax rules in the field to accommodate the situation but when we feel that it is our right to do these things that is where the Sgt Maj's remind us of the Colours of the Regiment. Treat the Guns with respect  and they will never fail you in time of need  UBIQUE
 
[TiC]As colours, when used ceremonially the guns may never touch the ground except for the trail.  This is why in pictures of ceremonial firing you will see one person on bended knee on either side of the gun, supporting the wheels scant centimetres above the ground on a metal plate that has been sanctified by the the regimental chaplain.[/TiC]
 
Safety wise the risk comes not from smoking near the gun it comes from smoking near the ammo. Hell I have had number ones who refused to let any of their crew smoke period. People would "try" to go on sentry so they could sneak a smoke.

I am not saying that you can string a hammock between the trails and set up the coffee maker on the breech. Respect the guns but use them.


 
I am not saying that you can string a hammock between the trails and set up the coffee maker on the breech.

No - actually, you said:

Past range control they are a tool and a means of delivery. To treat them otherwise in the field is dangerous

I was wondering what was dangerous about treating them with more respect than a "tool" - which is clearly what the Standing Orders call for, in a non-ceremonial environment.

Anyway, I think we answered the original question  :)
 
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