Are Suicide Bombers Cowards
- Thread starter kaspacanada
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EX-STRAT
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Canadian Goose we are from different walks of live. I respect your honesty on this concern BUT if you and I were ever to come across one of these individuals as you were reading his rights etc your voice would be the last one he hears because now you would be reading my rights to me. I take my chances on this one and leave it for you guys to pick apart. To you soldiers out there be careful your in our thoughts....
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Actually, Goose wouldn‘t read anything to you since he‘s not in the military. (May the powers that be have mercy on us if he did get past the physical ..hehehehe) We all know the consequences of what your actions would lead to. You‘d be strung up as fast as the troops were after the Somalia affair. I don‘t think the Canadian Military needs any loose triggers around like that as we have PR issues as it is. I truly hope that that is just rhetoric and anger coming out. Vent it here becuase from what I hear, Club ED is nothing like a civiside prison.
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I don‘t think it would be that big of a problem to the rest of Canada. Sure if somebody did kill a suicide bomber that they had captured before he had a chance to blow himself, they would be charged with murder etc. But I think the Canadian people would atleast understand the soldiers actions even if they don‘t agree with them.
Same way people were saying that soldiers should shoot Bin Laden on sight even if he could be captured. Killing him in that situation would be wrong but people would understand.
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I think this is an important debate.
I am personally of the view that there is no more cowardly act that a suicide bombing, and this is supported by western history and philosophy, and can be traced back to a religious view. Christianity teaches the suicide is a sin, and that to take one‘s own life will ensure a miserable afterlife.
The alternate views of Islam and the eastern religions differ. And since we are talking about fanaticals who act in the name of religion (although I must stress that in my opinion, they act in a WILDLY misinterpreted view of their religion, and by no means is this limited to Islam), it is clear that these individuals place a different value on their own life, and are quite willing to give it up to further their spiritual ends.
But the bottom line is, cowardly or not, how do you fight an enemy that has already killed himself, the moment he strapped on the bomb vest, if not long before?
By our society and by our standards, this type of warfare is cowardly. But we hold the upper hand in conventional warfare, we have the training, the equipment, the numbers, the funding. If YOU had to fight "us", what would YOU do? I can completely understand why these factions turn to guerrilla warfare and suicide bombings. I deplore it and find it utterly repugnant, but I can reason that this is the only way they can see to win.
Of course, there are fundamental flaws in the strategy, as there are in any game plan. If ALL of the enemy force decided to blow themselves up in suicide bombings, then there would be no enemy force left and we would win (to oversimplify it). Clearly, then, the intent of the enemy is not to destroy us, only to demoralize us. This makes their acts not one of warfare or combat, but instead a criminal act of terror - trying to achieve their goal through an unpredictable campaign of horrific destruction designed to make us want to no longer fight them.
If we walk away, we lose. Because it challenges our values, and it ensures we do not complete our mission.
If we stay, we risk losing more good troops, and because of our democratic oversight, we risk being pulled out anyway once our civilian leaders deem their political careers are in jeopardy.
The Brits stayed in Northern Ireland, and although they didn‘t fact suicide bombings, I think people have finally just had it with the continuing cycle of violence, which has led to unprecedented peace agreements and disarmament, and open dialogue.
Can that work in Afghanistan? In Iraq? Certainly not right now.
I am personally of the view that there is no more cowardly act that a suicide bombing, and this is supported by western history and philosophy, and can be traced back to a religious view. Christianity teaches the suicide is a sin, and that to take one‘s own life will ensure a miserable afterlife.
The alternate views of Islam and the eastern religions differ. And since we are talking about fanaticals who act in the name of religion (although I must stress that in my opinion, they act in a WILDLY misinterpreted view of their religion, and by no means is this limited to Islam), it is clear that these individuals place a different value on their own life, and are quite willing to give it up to further their spiritual ends.
But the bottom line is, cowardly or not, how do you fight an enemy that has already killed himself, the moment he strapped on the bomb vest, if not long before?
By our society and by our standards, this type of warfare is cowardly. But we hold the upper hand in conventional warfare, we have the training, the equipment, the numbers, the funding. If YOU had to fight "us", what would YOU do? I can completely understand why these factions turn to guerrilla warfare and suicide bombings. I deplore it and find it utterly repugnant, but I can reason that this is the only way they can see to win.
Of course, there are fundamental flaws in the strategy, as there are in any game plan. If ALL of the enemy force decided to blow themselves up in suicide bombings, then there would be no enemy force left and we would win (to oversimplify it). Clearly, then, the intent of the enemy is not to destroy us, only to demoralize us. This makes their acts not one of warfare or combat, but instead a criminal act of terror - trying to achieve their goal through an unpredictable campaign of horrific destruction designed to make us want to no longer fight them.
If we walk away, we lose. Because it challenges our values, and it ensures we do not complete our mission.
If we stay, we risk losing more good troops, and because of our democratic oversight, we risk being pulled out anyway once our civilian leaders deem their political careers are in jeopardy.
The Brits stayed in Northern Ireland, and although they didn‘t fact suicide bombings, I think people have finally just had it with the continuing cycle of violence, which has led to unprecedented peace agreements and disarmament, and open dialogue.
Can that work in Afghanistan? In Iraq? Certainly not right now.
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I think it is silly to assume that a Cdn troop killing a would-be suicide bomber in the act would be a PR problem.
A dead guy with explosives strapped to his chest is not out there to have a light debate of political views over the morning coffee. He‘s out there to murder. He‘s a criminal.
Even our criminal law recognizes that use of force to PREVENT a criminal act is fully justified. Force that causes death or grievous bodily harm is also justified if no lesser degree of force would likely have repelled the assault, and that there was an immediate threat of your own death or grievous bodily harm, or to those under your protection (including civilians). It is for this reason a corrections officer could use deadly force to stop an escapee who was a particularly high risk offender.
I see no problem if a CF troop killed a bomber in the act. But that‘s the trick. Is a bomber going to show you his bomb vest and yell out "Allah u akhbar" and give you a warning? Probably not. Can you shoot everyone you approaches your vehicle and doesn‘t display only the friendliest dispositions? Nope.
Rock, meet hard place.
A dead guy with explosives strapped to his chest is not out there to have a light debate of political views over the morning coffee. He‘s out there to murder. He‘s a criminal.
Even our criminal law recognizes that use of force to PREVENT a criminal act is fully justified. Force that causes death or grievous bodily harm is also justified if no lesser degree of force would likely have repelled the assault, and that there was an immediate threat of your own death or grievous bodily harm, or to those under your protection (including civilians). It is for this reason a corrections officer could use deadly force to stop an escapee who was a particularly high risk offender.
I see no problem if a CF troop killed a bomber in the act. But that‘s the trick. Is a bomber going to show you his bomb vest and yell out "Allah u akhbar" and give you a warning? Probably not. Can you shoot everyone you approaches your vehicle and doesn‘t display only the friendliest dispositions? Nope.
Rock, meet hard place.
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EX-STRAT
Guest
WOW that was amazing portcullisguy. Well put, to the point and you were nice about it. A few of us could learn from you. Soldier on!
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My comment was made in the context as if we had actually ever caught a bomber and he/she was no longer an immediate threat. As was said, "if someone had been reading him/her their rights." Sure if the bombers got his finger on the trigger, by all means, put as many rounds in his body as you see fit to drop him. :fifty:
I think that would ‘fly‘ with both the ROE‘s and the public. Shoot him when you‘ve got him shackled, and are reading the rights and you‘ve opened up a whole new can of worms. But it was well put Portscullisguy.
I think that would ‘fly‘ with both the ROE‘s and the public. Shoot him when you‘ve got him shackled, and are reading the rights and you‘ve opened up a whole new can of worms. But it was well put Portscullisguy.
D
Derick Lewis
Guest
First Off Goose who the **** are you to tell us these guys are soldiers, as for your bombing argument that is what SAMS and radar are for they protect themsleves it isn‘t cowardly it‘s a form of warfare, where both sides have a chance at offense and deffense. They are cowards that stirke not only at us the real warrior but at civilians who are just trying to survive. They target them because they know that a civilain hasn‘t the means to deffend themselves. Doug your right anyone comes near my vehicle and I even have a milisecond of a though that he is trying anythign I‘ll tap him as many times as it takes to make sure he never gets up.
Resty easy Jamie were coming home to see you off right bro!
Resty easy Jamie were coming home to see you off right bro!
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First off, I would like to thank everyone for reading and reacting to my comments. I appreciate that my views are heard, and try to respect everyone else‘s. I am certainly no political science student, nor am I an expert in international relations. I have only limited army experience, not even in a full two years in the reserves. But, I have only my conscience and values to guide me. I understand not everyone wants to talk about this, and it is a very difficult subject even on the best of days.
I have my own personal opinion of what to do with suicide bombers, living or otherwise, if caught. However, out of cultural respect, and because my opinion on the matter refers to an illegal and immoral act, I will refrain from sharing it publicly.
Having said that, the correct thing to do with a captured would-be suicide bomber, like any other criminal, is to treat them with their bare minimum of rights and to ensure they are dealt with according to law speedily. I am not sure I am a big enough man to do the "correct" thing, and fear I would sink to their moral level, perhaps doing something reprehensible or dishonourable in the process. I hope I am never in that situation.
A good solution, perhaps not the best one (which might involve the families of the bereaved victims, and a locked room, and some bicycle chains and shards of glass), is to encourage the Afghanis to rapidly get their house in order, train judges and police, and instill the requisite national pride in them that they are adamant about ratting out the suicide bombers and their leadership themselves, handing them over to their own justice system, which of course is not restricted in any way by our Canadian constitution, and have the would-be bombers dealt with according to THEIR law, which I assure you has far sharper teeth than any we can invent.
This is easier said than done, and perhaps the day will yet come. I only pray it comes before more good soliders have to die.
I have my own personal opinion of what to do with suicide bombers, living or otherwise, if caught. However, out of cultural respect, and because my opinion on the matter refers to an illegal and immoral act, I will refrain from sharing it publicly.
Having said that, the correct thing to do with a captured would-be suicide bomber, like any other criminal, is to treat them with their bare minimum of rights and to ensure they are dealt with according to law speedily. I am not sure I am a big enough man to do the "correct" thing, and fear I would sink to their moral level, perhaps doing something reprehensible or dishonourable in the process. I hope I am never in that situation.
A good solution, perhaps not the best one (which might involve the families of the bereaved victims, and a locked room, and some bicycle chains and shards of glass), is to encourage the Afghanis to rapidly get their house in order, train judges and police, and instill the requisite national pride in them that they are adamant about ratting out the suicide bombers and their leadership themselves, handing them over to their own justice system, which of course is not restricted in any way by our Canadian constitution, and have the would-be bombers dealt with according to THEIR law, which I assure you has far sharper teeth than any we can invent.
This is easier said than done, and perhaps the day will yet come. I only pray it comes before more good soliders have to die.
Gunnar
Army.ca Veteran
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Suicide bombers cowards? Not necessarily.
A man who is willing to die for his beliefs, like any of our soldiers, who bravely puts himself in harms way to "destroy destruction", i.e., destroy an invading army or force that is attempting to destroy him, or his family, or his beliefs is a brave man. Some things are worth dying for. Only a man who values life can be called brave for choosing to give it up for his beliefs.
Now, a man who claims to believe in a non-violent religion of respect for life, whose very own prophet says that "the real Jihad is inside, not outside" (I‘d quote it exactly if I could remember the passage), then who goes out of his way to blow up women and children, or fly planes into a civilian population (net effect on the "war": zero) is a hypocrite, a coward, and deserves that people spit at his memory.
It is easy to die for a cause. It is far harder to live for one. Most of these suicide bombers have chosen their particular path because:
1. They have no respect for human life
2. They have no power to enforce their belief system, i.e., they are such a minority that they couldn‘t raise a militia of like-minded individuals to *fight* a war. They‘re unconvincing.
3. They are so grossly uneducated and unprepared for ideological battles that suicide sounds like a good idea: Take it from the viewpoint of the average starving Afghani...life sucks, women are so tightly controlled you can‘t get laid, you have problems and nobody seems to respect your belief system. Now, the rich guy over there seems to have it together, promises to look after your family after you die, KNOWS that you‘ll go straight to heaven and be awash in women who will serve your every need, and life won‘t be bad any more. If you can‘t work all that out in your head, it is possible that with care and patience, someone can turn you into a suicide bomber.
#1 comes from living in a harsh environment, to a certain extent. Death happens, so it is easy to become inured to it.
#2 comes from the fact that most people don‘t willingly go out of their way to accept a belief system based on death, and by this I mean the belief system of Osama & company, which is incompatible with Islam.
#3 Has a lot of causes, primarily philosophical.
Maybe the suicide bomber believed he was dying for a good cause. Those who sent him were using him as cheap cannon fodder, asking him to make the ultimate sacrifice as an annoyance to the foreign forces in Afghanistan. From a tactical point of view, his death was just as meaningless as that suffered on our side. He‘s probably just some dumb farmer hopped up on cheap opium, Salvation and greenbacks for the family. To the extent that that is true, then he is not a coward, but a misguided fool. If he fully believed in the cause, understood all the implications, and chose to follow this course of action, then he was just as cowardly as his terrorist masters and deserves (as do Osama and others of his ilk) to be spat upon and interred with warm pig guts.
What makes *our soldiers* brave is that they understand the sacrifice they are making, but choose to make it anyway. This is what a REAL martyr is...someone who chooses to put themselves in danger, knowing what that entails, because there are higher-order considerations which are so essential to their life that they outweigh that life itself. They choose this life to destroy the forces of destruction, not to beat, torture and kill women and children...in fact, our warfare tends towards the "civilized" in that way because in spite of the collateral damage, we do not make war on non-combatants.
Our soldiers are worthy of respect for they have chosen the life they have to protect the kind of life they have. And they understand the consequences of their actions and inactions. Suicide bombers are not worthy of respect because instead of looking at death as an unfortunate necessity, they look on death as a means to an end. It is the extent of their understanding which determines how cowardly their resultant actions are.
Osama and his like are cowards on such a scale it defies imagination. Some of his followers are brave, but misguided fools. Which is why a lot of his followers end up dead.
A man who is willing to die for his beliefs, like any of our soldiers, who bravely puts himself in harms way to "destroy destruction", i.e., destroy an invading army or force that is attempting to destroy him, or his family, or his beliefs is a brave man. Some things are worth dying for. Only a man who values life can be called brave for choosing to give it up for his beliefs.
Now, a man who claims to believe in a non-violent religion of respect for life, whose very own prophet says that "the real Jihad is inside, not outside" (I‘d quote it exactly if I could remember the passage), then who goes out of his way to blow up women and children, or fly planes into a civilian population (net effect on the "war": zero) is a hypocrite, a coward, and deserves that people spit at his memory.
It is easy to die for a cause. It is far harder to live for one. Most of these suicide bombers have chosen their particular path because:
1. They have no respect for human life
2. They have no power to enforce their belief system, i.e., they are such a minority that they couldn‘t raise a militia of like-minded individuals to *fight* a war. They‘re unconvincing.
3. They are so grossly uneducated and unprepared for ideological battles that suicide sounds like a good idea: Take it from the viewpoint of the average starving Afghani...life sucks, women are so tightly controlled you can‘t get laid, you have problems and nobody seems to respect your belief system. Now, the rich guy over there seems to have it together, promises to look after your family after you die, KNOWS that you‘ll go straight to heaven and be awash in women who will serve your every need, and life won‘t be bad any more. If you can‘t work all that out in your head, it is possible that with care and patience, someone can turn you into a suicide bomber.
#1 comes from living in a harsh environment, to a certain extent. Death happens, so it is easy to become inured to it.
#2 comes from the fact that most people don‘t willingly go out of their way to accept a belief system based on death, and by this I mean the belief system of Osama & company, which is incompatible with Islam.
#3 Has a lot of causes, primarily philosophical.
Maybe the suicide bomber believed he was dying for a good cause. Those who sent him were using him as cheap cannon fodder, asking him to make the ultimate sacrifice as an annoyance to the foreign forces in Afghanistan. From a tactical point of view, his death was just as meaningless as that suffered on our side. He‘s probably just some dumb farmer hopped up on cheap opium, Salvation and greenbacks for the family. To the extent that that is true, then he is not a coward, but a misguided fool. If he fully believed in the cause, understood all the implications, and chose to follow this course of action, then he was just as cowardly as his terrorist masters and deserves (as do Osama and others of his ilk) to be spat upon and interred with warm pig guts.
What makes *our soldiers* brave is that they understand the sacrifice they are making, but choose to make it anyway. This is what a REAL martyr is...someone who chooses to put themselves in danger, knowing what that entails, because there are higher-order considerations which are so essential to their life that they outweigh that life itself. They choose this life to destroy the forces of destruction, not to beat, torture and kill women and children...in fact, our warfare tends towards the "civilized" in that way because in spite of the collateral damage, we do not make war on non-combatants.
Our soldiers are worthy of respect for they have chosen the life they have to protect the kind of life they have. And they understand the consequences of their actions and inactions. Suicide bombers are not worthy of respect because instead of looking at death as an unfortunate necessity, they look on death as a means to an end. It is the extent of their understanding which determines how cowardly their resultant actions are.
Osama and his like are cowards on such a scale it defies imagination. Some of his followers are brave, but misguided fools. Which is why a lot of his followers end up dead.
B
Bulvyn
Guest
Very well said Gunnar
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Very VERY well said Gunnar 
Get the debate into you now troops, because if and when it is a reality, the debate ends. When your asses are on the line it‘s all about you and the men on your team. It‘s SURVIVAL!!!
When you are on foot patrol in the middle of Kabul, you no longer care about what label we as Canadians decide to give him. You care about where he is, who his next target is, how he intends to deliver. You will be too busy watching your arcs to ponder such lofty ideals as politics and religion.
Terrorist, freedom fighter, religious zealot.....who cares. We‘re more worried about his modus operandi. We need to know when, where, and who he will strike next. If, somehow, you find some insight into these questions, by all means let us know. Until then, enjoy your debate. Unfortunately Doug, Myself, and many others don‘t have that luxury.....................
When you are on foot patrol in the middle of Kabul, you no longer care about what label we as Canadians decide to give him. You care about where he is, who his next target is, how he intends to deliver. You will be too busy watching your arcs to ponder such lofty ideals as politics and religion.
Terrorist, freedom fighter, religious zealot.....who cares. We‘re more worried about his modus operandi. We need to know when, where, and who he will strike next. If, somehow, you find some insight into these questions, by all means let us know. Until then, enjoy your debate. Unfortunately Doug, Myself, and many others don‘t have that luxury.....................
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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"Until then, enjoy your debate. Unfortunately Doug, Myself, and many others don‘t have that luxury....................."
Seems to me my friend that your contributing to the debate just as much as everyone else. I don‘t really understand the point your trying to get across here?
Everyone hopes you guys come home okay and were all proud of you guys. I‘d say especially guys from the petawawa area reg force/reserves and the guys who‘ve worked with 3rcr before. I‘m sure some of us are even envious of you guys being there and would jump at the chance to patrol right along side you. I may have taken the attitude of your comment wrong and if i did then i appologize but (to me) why make people feel small about discussing something like this? Everyone knows when something like this happens it generates all kinds of feed back, arguments, topics (theres what 7 ?) and questions. This IS a discussion board after all. Keep your head down and take it easy on the guys who are simply interested and supportive of what your doing.
Seems to me my friend that your contributing to the debate just as much as everyone else. I don‘t really understand the point your trying to get across here?
Everyone hopes you guys come home okay and were all proud of you guys. I‘d say especially guys from the petawawa area reg force/reserves and the guys who‘ve worked with 3rcr before. I‘m sure some of us are even envious of you guys being there and would jump at the chance to patrol right along side you. I may have taken the attitude of your comment wrong and if i did then i appologize but (to me) why make people feel small about discussing something like this? Everyone knows when something like this happens it generates all kinds of feed back, arguments, topics (theres what 7 ?) and questions. This IS a discussion board after all. Keep your head down and take it easy on the guys who are simply interested and supportive of what your doing.
Ghost778.
I wasn‘t contributing to the debate as much as I was trying to explain what Doug is trying to convey during this very emotional time. That‘s what soldiers do, they look out for one another.
Be very ******* careful what tone you take with me. You little smart-***.
I would never presume to tell you where and what to debate, nor did I. If you feel small and envious that‘s your problem.
Maybe we‘ll see you again when you aspire to something greater than 863 posts.
BTW, we don‘t put kite sights on our weapons during the day over here...................
I wasn‘t contributing to the debate as much as I was trying to explain what Doug is trying to convey during this very emotional time. That‘s what soldiers do, they look out for one another.
Be very ******* careful what tone you take with me. You little smart-***.
I would never presume to tell you where and what to debate, nor did I. If you feel small and envious that‘s your problem.
Maybe we‘ll see you again when you aspire to something greater than 863 posts.
BTW, we don‘t put kite sights on our weapons during the day over here...................
Y
Yllw_Ninja
Guest
Say you had a suicide bomber with arm and leg chains on...and your walking him towards the jailhouse...and theres this flight of stairs...could he not "accidently" trip and fall down said stairs? i mean you looked away for but a second...next thing you know he‘s tumbling down the stairs...over...and over...and over again...would be a tragic accident...just my view on how one could deal with this slime
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