Arab History/Culture
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Shukran zhaziilan ya Che.
It's a bit past my bed-time right now, so perhaps more from me in subsequent days, or the weekend.
I think, given the origin of the current terrorist threat from a subculture within Arab culture, this is a topic worth exploring in detail. What is the motivation here? Why is "martyrdom" despite being a concept not unique to Islam, more attractive to Arab Muslims than to, for example, Indonesians?
More when my brain is fully functional (if that ever happens.)
Acorn
It's a bit past my bed-time right now, so perhaps more from me in subsequent days, or the weekend.
I think, given the origin of the current terrorist threat from a subculture within Arab culture, this is a topic worth exploring in detail. What is the motivation here? Why is "martyrdom" despite being a concept not unique to Islam, more attractive to Arab Muslims than to, for example, Indonesians?
More when my brain is fully functional (if that ever happens.)
Acorn
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My first contribution will be an attempt to enumerate the positive aspects of Arab culture. First, some caveats:
1. These obervations are generalities, and so there will be exceptions.
2. My observations are based primarily on observations of a particular Arab region, there are certainly regional differences, though my observations indicate that they are mostly minor.
3. Islam plays a significant factor in Arab culture, but it is not the only influence. We can no more say that Arabs are driven by Islam than we can say Americans are driven by Baptist ideologies.
There are many positive aspects of Arab culture. this should be no surprise, as any culture will have positive and negative aspects (we should keep this in mind when touting our own cultural superiority).
One positive (which can have negative aspects) is that of the importance of family. This characteristic can also have negative influence, but ultimately the strength of family is what allows Arab culture to continue. An Arab may despise his brother, but will take his brother's side against a friend, simply because family loyalty trumps all else. This loyalty is primarily upward though, towards elders.
Another is hospitality. Arabs take the traditions of hospitality very seriously. They will often make great sacrifices in order to be hospitable. How many first acquaintances in our world result in an invitation to dinner? A serious invitation.
Loyalty is the final positive I will offer in this post. For Arabs loyalty works much as we would want it to - in two directions. Arabs will take friendship seriously, and will express loyalty far beyond what we are used to seeing in our Western world. However, that loyalty works both ways - fail in your end, and the obligations are off.
At some point soon I will present some of what I see as the negative aspects of Arab culture.
Acorn
1. These obervations are generalities, and so there will be exceptions.
2. My observations are based primarily on observations of a particular Arab region, there are certainly regional differences, though my observations indicate that they are mostly minor.
3. Islam plays a significant factor in Arab culture, but it is not the only influence. We can no more say that Arabs are driven by Islam than we can say Americans are driven by Baptist ideologies.
There are many positive aspects of Arab culture. this should be no surprise, as any culture will have positive and negative aspects (we should keep this in mind when touting our own cultural superiority).
One positive (which can have negative aspects) is that of the importance of family. This characteristic can also have negative influence, but ultimately the strength of family is what allows Arab culture to continue. An Arab may despise his brother, but will take his brother's side against a friend, simply because family loyalty trumps all else. This loyalty is primarily upward though, towards elders.
Another is hospitality. Arabs take the traditions of hospitality very seriously. They will often make great sacrifices in order to be hospitable. How many first acquaintances in our world result in an invitation to dinner? A serious invitation.
Loyalty is the final positive I will offer in this post. For Arabs loyalty works much as we would want it to - in two directions. Arabs will take friendship seriously, and will express loyalty far beyond what we are used to seeing in our Western world. However, that loyalty works both ways - fail in your end, and the obligations are off.
At some point soon I will present some of what I see as the negative aspects of Arab culture.
Acorn
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Family is the staple of Islamic society as well as the staple of Arab society. The loyalty is often thrown out the windows at the highest levels of culture (the royals) they'll murder each other in cold blood, with mothers pitting sons against one another. At a grassroots level you'll see that family is paramount, and forms the basis for just about everything. Think for a second, to use a cliched stereotype, how often do you see a store run by Arabs where the only employees all look suspiciously similar. Loyalty to parents, Loyalty to spouses, loyalty to siblings, loyalty to other Arabs...sort of the hierarchy of loyalty (at a basic level)
This is also a characteristic of cultures outside of the predominately European ones. Familys will stay together until the children are married off, and even then you'll find 30 year old married couples who live in their parents house out of loyalty and to take care of the elders of the family.
A long standing common observation in England is that when an immigrant moves in next door you'll always see about 11 people in the house at one time. It's not always because they have to either.
An anecdote. I had dinner with my professor and his brother in-law the other day, they're both Palestinians. I tried to do a simple task (pour water) and the water jug was ripped from my hand and poured for me. If my plate was empty it would be filled way too much. I get up to use the bathroom and the conversation stops to make sure that absolutely nothing is wrong "Do you need a drink?" "would you like a cigarette" "would you like some more food"
An Arab could have their greatest enemy over to dinner and if you were to watch the hospitality you would think you were family. This is a meditterenean trait I believe. Greeks, Italians, etc. I've always said the English Love tea because they get to get off of work for a few minutes, have a fag and of course enjoy the tea. Arabs enjoy tea because it gives them a chance to cram as many people as they can into their house, discuss politics and bond to a point of extreme familitarity with complete strangers.
Arab loyalty and friendship tie into the tradition of hospitality as well.
If you don't already know an Arab, go talk to one and I garuntee it won't be more than a day before you are at their house being stuffed full of Falafal, Halfa, tea, flavoured tabacco, water, dates, rich deserts and everyone at the house calls you brother/sister and if you happen to see that Arab 20 years later you'll find yourself at their house in less then 15 minutes going through the same hospitality (Providing you have somehow offended said hospitality, which is another topic onto itself.)
I'll add my own positive (also a negative if misdirected)
Passion.
Passion for anything. Passion for knowledge, passion for conversation, passion for breathing, passion for eating.
Intense passion (not a sexual passion) for things that you even find most people are completely indifferent towards is an definet and unmissable characteristic.
Don't forget the rich Arab tradition of strapping yourself with explosives and detonating yourself in a crowded Tel-Aviv bus. Cultivating family ties by sending out your 10 year old son with an AK to empty a clip into his sisters head, who had just ran off with another guy, hatred for progress, fear and suspicion of other successful nations, and intense passion for remaining ignorant and backwards.
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Napalm,
I'll be in touch.
I'll be in touch.
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Napalm, if you don't have any constructive to add, why don't you shut your piehole.
As well, martyrdom, suicide attacks, and patriachry are not ideas confined to the cultures of the Middle East. Pull your head out of your ass....
As well, martyrdom, suicide attacks, and patriachry are not ideas confined to the cultures of the Middle East. Pull your head out of your ass....
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Che,
I mentioned in a previous message to you that I had the great pleasure of living in Zanzibar for six months in '97. It is a beautiful place, rich in history. Have you had a chance to study Arab exploration and their influence in the Spice Islands and Swahili Coast?
As an footnote, I had the chance to "volunteer" in the rehabilitation of a Sultan's Beach home. An Italian business man bought it from the Government and was turning it into an celebrity retreat. He brought in some Italian models to do a photo shoot to promote it..... but i digress.
I mentioned in a previous message to you that I had the great pleasure of living in Zanzibar for six months in '97. It is a beautiful place, rich in history. Have you had a chance to study Arab exploration and their influence in the Spice Islands and Swahili Coast?
As an footnote, I had the chance to "volunteer" in the rehabilitation of a Sultan's Beach home. An Italian business man bought it from the Government and was turning it into an celebrity retreat. He brought in some Italian models to do a photo shoot to promote it..... but i digress.
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I've studied the Arab trade relations with the East African coast and their impact on the Africans, but from more of an African standpoint.
Thanks to the winds of the ocean, Arabs and Muslims were into East Africa long before they were ever into North Africa.
The Swahili language itself is a mixture of Bantu and Arab dialects. (I believe)
The Arab traders would ride the winds to the East African coast and trade for things from the African inland, they would generally have to wait about 6 months, during that time is when the culture was adapted into East African culture.
And Napalm, Cheers mate we won't be seeing much more of you around here if I have my way.
Thanks to the winds of the ocean, Arabs and Muslims were into East Africa long before they were ever into North Africa.
The Swahili language itself is a mixture of Bantu and Arab dialects. (I believe)
The Arab traders would ride the winds to the East African coast and trade for things from the African inland, they would generally have to wait about 6 months, during that time is when the culture was adapted into East African culture.
And Napalm, Cheers mate we won't be seeing much more of you around here if I have my way.
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Che, Consider this one just like Burger King....have it your way!
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Che and Infanteer,
I am an idiot when it comes to Arab history. Is there a dummies book available? Spending so much time in Zanzibar and Coastal East Africa I was amazed with the number of palaces (ruins), libraries, etc... It was fascinating. Spice Islands are really a neat place. The basic boat structure used in inshore and offshore fishing in Swahili Africa has remained pretty much unchanged since the original "Arab colonization" (for lack of a better term???- hope it is not offensive).
I had a chance to spend some time immersed in the Sultan's Palace in Stone Town. Very neat place. My sense thought, and perhaps you can shed light on it, was the original Arab Sultans were not "driven" my Islam, but rather by commerce. Islam didn't appear to have a pronounced position within their residence or personal effects- especially at the Sultan's bath house and Hiram palace. What I always sort of envisioned was the Ali Babba fables... a unique culture that wasn't confined to "traditional" Islamic dogma (lack of a better word).
I wish we could chat about this over a pop. This aspect of Arab culture is very interesting to me. Swahili (certainly in Unguga and Pemba and coastal Kenya) has a lot of Arabic words and phrases.
Anyways looking forward to your contributions on this topic.
I am an idiot when it comes to Arab history. Is there a dummies book available? Spending so much time in Zanzibar and Coastal East Africa I was amazed with the number of palaces (ruins), libraries, etc... It was fascinating. Spice Islands are really a neat place. The basic boat structure used in inshore and offshore fishing in Swahili Africa has remained pretty much unchanged since the original "Arab colonization" (for lack of a better term???- hope it is not offensive).
I had a chance to spend some time immersed in the Sultan's Palace in Stone Town. Very neat place. My sense thought, and perhaps you can shed light on it, was the original Arab Sultans were not "driven" my Islam, but rather by commerce. Islam didn't appear to have a pronounced position within their residence or personal effects- especially at the Sultan's bath house and Hiram palace. What I always sort of envisioned was the Ali Babba fables... a unique culture that wasn't confined to "traditional" Islamic dogma (lack of a better word).
I wish we could chat about this over a pop. This aspect of Arab culture is very interesting to me. Swahili (certainly in Unguga and Pemba and coastal Kenya) has a lot of Arabic words and phrases.
Anyways looking forward to your contributions on this topic.
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The closest "For Dummies" book I can think of is this
Go into any history department in any university or any mid-east studies program and this will be the book.
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item....talog=Books&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1
There's also an excellent textbook Called "Africa in World History" by Erik Gilbert and Jonathan Reynolds, which has a few chapters dedicated specifically to the Swahili coast.
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Item=978013092907&Catalog=Books&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1
Those are..the basics to say the least. Arabian history is...immensely confusing.
The initial foray into the Swahili coast was entirely economic, I would describe the North African Campaigns as colonisation, but I would describe the East African trade relations as being more symbiotic and very slow in comparison.
So while the north African expansion was similar to many Imperial conquests throughout history, the East African situation is more akin to the North American situation, where we absorb alot of culture through trade and common interaction.
Islam was a byproduct of the commerical expansion. Some very, very old mosques in East Africa, built from mud and sticks.
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Napalm said:
Definitely an interesting perspective from someone who purports to have 2 years in polysci, and wishes to join the "RCAF". I sure hope you still maintain this attitude when the guy next to you at basic is of Arabic decent. :
Sigh...T
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Having read two different english translations of the Koran, I can say unequivically I do not like Islam as it is written, nor how it is taught.
In fact, I would contend that Islam is the primary reason why arab culture which once led the world in sciences and math has been left behind by the western world.
I would make this argument based on the fact that unlike secular christianity/atheism/agnosticism, although western "faith" (whatever it may be) can guide individuals as they freely live their lives, Islam (the word, the prayer and the clerical guidance) dominates the lives of its believers and specifies their practices. In terms of cultural evolution this "freedom of thought" has given the west a tremendous advantage in terms of the development of just about every aspect of society. In essence, the West has had an inate ability to innovate and improve while Islam has held most Arab nations back.
Bottom Line: I have yet to find a muslim individual I haven't liked and I agree with all the personality descriptions provided by other posters (loyal, generous, etc), but their entrenchment in a religion I see as bigoted, misogynistic and deeply regressive deeply troubles me to no end....
My apologies if this falls outside of the PC rules for this board, but that's my academic response to the topic at hand.
Matthew.
In fact, I would contend that Islam is the primary reason why arab culture which once led the world in sciences and math has been left behind by the western world.
I would make this argument based on the fact that unlike secular christianity/atheism/agnosticism, although western "faith" (whatever it may be) can guide individuals as they freely live their lives, Islam (the word, the prayer and the clerical guidance) dominates the lives of its believers and specifies their practices. In terms of cultural evolution this "freedom of thought" has given the west a tremendous advantage in terms of the development of just about every aspect of society. In essence, the West has had an inate ability to innovate and improve while Islam has held most Arab nations back.
Bottom Line: I have yet to find a muslim individual I haven't liked and I agree with all the personality descriptions provided by other posters (loyal, generous, etc), but their entrenchment in a religion I see as bigoted, misogynistic and deeply regressive deeply troubles me to no end....
My apologies if this falls outside of the PC rules for this board, but that's my academic response to the topic at hand.
Matthew.
Pieman
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My understanding of Islam is quite different than yours with respect to free thinking. In the Quaran I read, it spoke of questioning and learning, i.e. what is written in the Koran is not the rule of absolute but can be modified. In fact, if you look farther in the past it is the Arabic culture that was far more advanced in science and mathematics than Europe. And I believe that this is a result of the open mindedness of the religion itself.
If we look at the roots of out own culture, Christianity had a very strong foot hold of holding the European society and thinking back then. It was not until people began to move out of the shadow of the grip of the church that 'free thinking' began to emerge. (me and my shady history, please feel free to correct me if i am off on this)
If anything about Islam is not so 'free thinking' as you put it, it would be the more basics ways a person should live their life, and the general values that one has. Woman have a specific role in this world to play, and should behave thus so. Men have a very specific role in the world to play, and also should behave thus so.
I think that a lot of our understanding of the Arab world becomes muddled between religion and local culture. The religion of Islam had a profound effect on the Arab world when it first appeared and was embraced. However, I find that people often forget that the people were there long before Islam and are still influenced this day by the culture, and historical background of their location.
So I guess I am saying that if we are to try to understand Arabs as a whole, we have to look beyond just the religion and deeper into their past.
Just my thoughts on this topic.
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Your argument as a awhole I've seen before and it does have merit, except this part.
The same culture that led in maths and sciences was even more deeply religious then the one we see today.
If anything is holding back the Arab world at this point it is Arab leaders who do little more than rule and do nothing Islamic whatsoever.
Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia (Definetely) etc. all have been held back a great deal. There is also a tribal fragmentation that is pre-Islamic, which still exists today (Islam has mended many tribal issues but there are and were too many to do it effectively) which divides the Arab peoples.
Muslims do have a great deal of freedom of thought, many, many Muslim philisophers have come and gone, there is a great deal of Muslim Poetry (not religious poetry) and Music which I believe points this out. While Europe struggled in the dark Ages, the Muslims flourished as a result of their insatiable (God commanded) quest for knowledge and wisdom. A rarely mentioned tenament of Faith is that it is the duty of every Muslim (man and woman) to seek out knowledge and continue education for their entire life. While it may be commanded, it opens up a billion doors and pathways of free thought.
However it is a religion of laws, much like Judaism and as such it does govern a great deal of everyday life. Don't eat Pork, don't drink alcohol, don't have sex before marriage, don't swear, wear conservative clothing, pray 5 times a day, starve yourself a few days and weeks out of the year, there is one God and one God only and these were his prophets sent down to reveal you to him.
I wouldn't misconstrue this as an inability to think freely. The rigidness of Arab thought predates Islam, it has however been applied to Islam, and this is a flaw.
English translations of the Qur'an are deeply flawed. Deeply deeply flawed, no matter what you do. Believe it or not, it's not a smokescreen. Arabic language has words with 50 different meanings where one in particular can be derived based on the placement of a vowel.
This is why the Qur'an is the most important worldly thing to Muslims.
An example might be the infamous 70(?) virgins verse. Tracing back through 10s of translations I've found the word virigns and Raisins are used....What a surprise that would be...."Alright, time for my virgins." "Here's your raisins Malik." "Damnit"
As such, reading two copies of English translations gives you a basic and simple knowledge, but not the proper knowledge. The people who blow themselves to bits have the same interpretations, all basic and simple because that's what they want to hear. I rarely comment on the Qur'an for this reason. I have read over many, many different copies of it, in English and Arabic and I still do not have the knowledge to give a good lesson on it. This is a flaw that many Muslim Clerics have too, and as such they have given idiot advice and words on something they know little about.
The Qur'an, is supposed to be the literal word of God. I find contradictions in it, but in reconciling them I find myself so deeply entrenched in thought that I really see the merits inherint. I do not want to preach though so I will end that there.
The greatest Muslims, I was once told, are the ones who never talk about it.(As you can see, I'm not great at all)
Anyhow, I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, don't want this thread to turn into discussion solely on Islam. It's a very large aspect of Arab culture, but many aspects of Arab culture predate (as Pieman has pointed out) Islam, those are the ones worth exploring before any meaningful debate on Islam is brought up.
The same culture that led in maths and sciences was even more deeply religious then the one we see today.
If anything is holding back the Arab world at this point it is Arab leaders who do little more than rule and do nothing Islamic whatsoever.
Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia (Definetely) etc. all have been held back a great deal. There is also a tribal fragmentation that is pre-Islamic, which still exists today (Islam has mended many tribal issues but there are and were too many to do it effectively) which divides the Arab peoples.
Muslims do have a great deal of freedom of thought, many, many Muslim philisophers have come and gone, there is a great deal of Muslim Poetry (not religious poetry) and Music which I believe points this out. While Europe struggled in the dark Ages, the Muslims flourished as a result of their insatiable (God commanded) quest for knowledge and wisdom. A rarely mentioned tenament of Faith is that it is the duty of every Muslim (man and woman) to seek out knowledge and continue education for their entire life. While it may be commanded, it opens up a billion doors and pathways of free thought.
However it is a religion of laws, much like Judaism and as such it does govern a great deal of everyday life. Don't eat Pork, don't drink alcohol, don't have sex before marriage, don't swear, wear conservative clothing, pray 5 times a day, starve yourself a few days and weeks out of the year, there is one God and one God only and these were his prophets sent down to reveal you to him.
I wouldn't misconstrue this as an inability to think freely. The rigidness of Arab thought predates Islam, it has however been applied to Islam, and this is a flaw.
English translations of the Qur'an are deeply flawed. Deeply deeply flawed, no matter what you do. Believe it or not, it's not a smokescreen. Arabic language has words with 50 different meanings where one in particular can be derived based on the placement of a vowel.
This is why the Qur'an is the most important worldly thing to Muslims.
An example might be the infamous 70(?) virgins verse. Tracing back through 10s of translations I've found the word virigns and Raisins are used....What a surprise that would be...."Alright, time for my virgins." "Here's your raisins Malik." "Damnit"
As such, reading two copies of English translations gives you a basic and simple knowledge, but not the proper knowledge. The people who blow themselves to bits have the same interpretations, all basic and simple because that's what they want to hear. I rarely comment on the Qur'an for this reason. I have read over many, many different copies of it, in English and Arabic and I still do not have the knowledge to give a good lesson on it. This is a flaw that many Muslim Clerics have too, and as such they have given idiot advice and words on something they know little about.
The Qur'an, is supposed to be the literal word of God. I find contradictions in it, but in reconciling them I find myself so deeply entrenched in thought that I really see the merits inherint. I do not want to preach though so I will end that there.
The greatest Muslims, I was once told, are the ones who never talk about it.(As you can see, I'm not great at all)
Anyhow, I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, don't want this thread to turn into discussion solely on Islam. It's a very large aspect of Arab culture, but many aspects of Arab culture predate (as Pieman has pointed out) Islam, those are the ones worth exploring before any meaningful debate on Islam is brought up.
Brad Sallows
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I decided a while back that the only way to be sure of your interpretation of any religion's scripture is to:
1) Learn the (written) language in which the source documents were recorded;
2) Learn the cultural nuances of the language at the time the source documents were written;
3) Read the source documents (or more realistically, literal transcriptions thereof).
1) Learn the (written) language in which the source documents were recorded;
2) Learn the cultural nuances of the language at the time the source documents were written;
3) Read the source documents (or more realistically, literal transcriptions thereof).
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I would say yes if they seriously want to learn it, study it and understand it.
If they're going to church on Sundays then no, English or Latin will do.
But I would say when it involves peoples lives in the way it seems to do with Muslim clerics then I believe it's neccessary, but sadly few clerics or take the time to do this and fail to realise that because of Islams permeance into everyday life they need to take twice as much care as any other religious scholar.
If they're going to church on Sundays then no, English or Latin will do.
But I would say when it involves peoples lives in the way it seems to do with Muslim clerics then I believe it's neccessary, but sadly few clerics or take the time to do this and fail to realise that because of Islams permeance into everyday life they need to take twice as much care as any other religious scholar.
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You know, one thing I find extremely hypocritical about many of the discussions we have here about Islam, Middle Eastern Religions, etc., is that it seems people always expect that if someone is Islamic, Molsim, or what have you, the expectation is upon them to be Islamic or Moslim to the letter. People like Naplam (thanks for banning, BTW) lump them all together, and expect them all to follow the same doctine.
What I'm getting at is I'm thrilled to see this thread sort of dispel some of those apparent myths. I mean, if we don't expect all Christians to be hard-core Christians, why does it seem that so many people expect all Muslims to be hard-core Muslims? My next door neighbour is a Lebanese Moslim, and, aside from being one of the best neighbours I've ever had, he's pulled that veil away from my eyes. Yes, he's Moslim. He attends his church, his kids go to the Moslim Academy in Calgary. Does he follow everything according to what his religion dictates? Well, no, he doesn't. Which doesn't make him any less Moslim, IMO. My parents are both Christian. They have done some non-Christian things (I'm a direct result of one of those things
) are they any less Christian? No. I wish people would remember that no one is perfect, be it Christian, Moslim, Jew, Athiest, or whatever. It's too easy for people to stereotype that which they don't know, and thanks Che et al for trying to educate some of us. I know I appreciate it.
Sorry for the rant, I've been thinking about this since this thread started, and didn't know where else to post. Anyway, enough outta me.
T
What I'm getting at is I'm thrilled to see this thread sort of dispel some of those apparent myths. I mean, if we don't expect all Christians to be hard-core Christians, why does it seem that so many people expect all Muslims to be hard-core Muslims? My next door neighbour is a Lebanese Moslim, and, aside from being one of the best neighbours I've ever had, he's pulled that veil away from my eyes. Yes, he's Moslim. He attends his church, his kids go to the Moslim Academy in Calgary. Does he follow everything according to what his religion dictates? Well, no, he doesn't. Which doesn't make him any less Moslim, IMO. My parents are both Christian. They have done some non-Christian things (I'm a direct result of one of those things
) are they any less Christian? No. I wish people would remember that no one is perfect, be it Christian, Moslim, Jew, Athiest, or whatever. It's too easy for people to stereotype that which they don't know, and thanks Che et al for trying to educate some of us. I know I appreciate it.Sorry for the rant, I've been thinking about this since this thread started, and didn't know where else to post. Anyway, enough outta me.
T
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