Anybody else feel we got ripped off on MHP deal?

[Bograt]

Thanks guys for the answer. Dad was a TacNav on Auroras during the eighties. I believe there is/was a range in BC where they would make runs. I don't believe however that they ever dropped one. There was an anti military campaign by some in the area to have the range closed. I vaguely remember people from Demon Island (sp) complaining about chaff drops in their "medicinal gardens.'

Just curious again, do Auroras and Sea Kings have EW capability? Beyong chaff/flares do either have jamming capability? I would think that their radar signature is pretty big....

 

[Inch]

Ref the Datalink, the specifics will violate OPSEC, but Grumman has a bit of info on their systems online so the basics won't violate OPSEC.

http://www.ms.northropgrumman.com/markets/MDC4ISR.html

Our radar signature isn't all that big, plus we fly low. We're fairly sneaky. Also, jamming requires Rules of Engagement so it's not a common practice.

Cheers

 

[DJL]

The Datalink works just like you said, it allows the ships (and anyone on the datalink) to see what the Cyclone sees and vice versa.

Will this be similar to LAMPS?

 

[Inch]

I don't know what LAMPS is.

 

[DJL]

The data link used within the USN

 

[Inch]

Are you sure? I was under the impression they used Link 16 or Link 11.

 

[DJL]

I apologise, LAMPS is the "all encompassing system" in which the Data link is a part of.  :blotto:

To rephrase my question, will our new data link allow for greater intergration with the USN's ships and Seahawks?

 

[Inch]

Seen, I don't know a whole lot about the system, we don't have it in the Sea King and I've only learned a bit about it on my Maritime Warfare course so I'll leave that question for someone in the know.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Currious question,

Is the ASW info collected by Sea Kings and their replacement linked up with Auroras and the ships? What I mean to say is, can they all see what each other has on their sensors?

Inch, is there a naval range where Sea King and Aurora crews can launch live torpedoes? Does it happen during the normal course of pilot/crew training?

Our Sea Kings are not data-link equipped, which is partly why we are getting a new helo.  I only know what I snipe off of the "ASW Action net" (voice) and what my AESOP can find (plus a big dose of "gut-feel"- I have out-guessed a few submariners.  On the other hand, I've also had my ass handed to me on a platter...).  The ships and Aurora only know what I tell them over the same voice net.  We have procedures in place to keep things simple and good crews only use the radios a bare minimum (you can tell you are how swept up another crew is by how few words are actually said).  Bad crews plug the net with garbage and confuse the situation.

There is a range near Naniamo, BC called CFMETR Nanoose where the west coast ships and aircraft go to drop weapons on targets (I think the East Coasters have to go to AUTEC near Puerto Rico for their drops).  I have personnally dropped two torpedos (the first time is pretty scary.  The second time, you could care less if you are actually lugging a live weapon or not).  We track a Mk30 target, which is essentially an old torpedo which drives around the range for hours and hours pretending that it is a submarine.  The torpedos that we drop (Mk46 mod 5 ASW) are exactly like warshots, except no warhead (they carry a detachable weight in place of the explosives so we can recover them) and a lot less OTTO fuel to shorten the run time (we don't want the torp running off the range and we can't do much else on the range while a torp is running, so it would just waste game time to have a full torp fuel load).  The range is fully instrumented so that the staff can assess the accuracy of our drops and the relative success of our tactics.  I should also add that all of this training happens only while on an Operational Squadron- we don't have the time or resources to give everyone a go at this sort of thing during their initial aircrew training

We get accused of doing all sorts of nasty things on the range by the local anti-war and environmental types (It doesn't help that a local tourist map labels the range as "The Nanoose Bay Nuclear Test Range").  The truth is always less exciting-  West Coast aircraft and ships (along with some US Navy assets) use the range to fire exercise weapons like Mk46 and Mk48 torpedos (which are explosive free and ALWAYS recovered) and practise ASW tactics in a fully instrumented environment- pure and simple.  

Don't think that that I have violated any OPSEC with the above.  If I have, I'm sure that W601 will PM me!  

Cheers

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Thanks guys for the answer. Dad was a TacNav on Auroras during the eighties. I believe there is/was a range in BC where they would make runs. I don't believe however that they ever dropped one. There was an anti military campaign by some in the area to have the range closed. I vaguely remember people from Demon Island (sp) complaining about chaff drops in their "medicinal gardens.'

Just curious again, do Auroras and Sea Kings have EW capability? Beyong chaff/flares do either have jamming capability? I would think that their radar signature is pretty big....

I won't talk in too many specifics, but we have a Self-defence suite (SDS) kit that can be added to the Sea King.  It consists of a Missile Approach Warning System, an Infrared jammer, a countermeasures dispenser, a C6 door gun, plus armoured seats and kevlar blankets.  I have used most of the elements of the system in the Gulf and generally like it because it is pretty easy to use (not to mention that firing a door gun is so much fun that it should be illegal!).  the trouble is, it weighs so much that you pretty much have to pull the sonar out to allow yourself any kind of useful fuel load.  Another reason we are getting a new helo...

 

[Cloud Cover]

Don't think that that I have violated any OPSEC with the above.  If I have, I'm sure that W601 will PM me!  

I'm not in the Navy anymore, so I really don't know what to say about that. If you are confirming open source information, available off a DND website, you are probably ok, but if it is found somewhere on spec or by way of product advertising, that's right in hte grey area, which we all should avoid. Thats my take on it, anyway.  But I must say, the data link discussion has gone about as far as it should go, IMO.
Cheers. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

No the converationis ok no warning bells yet.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Whoops- swapped Ex-D and W601 in my head.  Sorry guys!

 

[Cloud Cover]

No worries.

 

[aesop081]

i might be mistaken but LAMPS stands for "light airborne multi-purpose system"

LAMPS II was the SH-2 seasprite
LAMPS III is the SH-60 Seahawk

We had a brief on the cyclone not too long ago and as far as the back end is concerned, the future sounds good....more slots at HOTEF for us !!! Now if they could only add an anti-ship missile...........

 

[Cloud Cover]

Aesop's is spot on for LAMPS.- the LAMPS III system was part of a package of systems rolled out in the early to mid 80's with the OHP frigates. Twenty years ago, I was posted to my first ship, and when I went in the EW shack all the talk was about how we would be scrapping the steamers, and mass producing the OHP's in our own yards, and acquiring the LAMPS helo's and a whole bunch of new sensor gear. I was cross polled to HMAS Darwin for a RIMPAC, as were many others to other OHP ships, and ended up doing almost 5 months on that ship. Then, the CPF contract was issued with a radical new design, and the proposed fleet size was for 22 new FFG hulls, plus the possibility of picking the Kidd Class destroyers. The Shads were supposed to get the CSEV. Within 3 years, the CPF design won out over all others, the fleet size was reduced to 18 (as opposed to 12 today), TRUMP came out of the skies and landed straight in the shipyards, CFEV was scrapped, we were supposed to get a Nuke boat fleet, a nuclear powered breaker for the coast guard with navy weapons crews, and the MH program pushed the LAMPS proposal to the side.

Well, the nukes and the breaker sunk on politics, the Kidds were just a rumour, LAMPS was only a dream, the CSEV proposal was deleted, TRUMP delivered about 70% of what is supposed to, and the CPF program was cut to 12, and the MH was awarded then cancelled.   

What a whirlwind!!  Anyway, enough reminiscing about the past, the Navy still seemed to come out light years ahead of where they were in 1984. By the time the new helo's arrive, the first FFG should be emerging from the HM program, and all will be right in the world of FFG's again. Cheers.

 

[jmacleod]

As of 11 November 2004, the Government of Canada has not signed the contract for the
MHP replacement for the CH124 "Sea King". Does anyone within reader range know why
this is? MacLeod

 

[aesop081]

No.  But as a hopeful cyclone AESOp, i must say that i am not impressed.

 

[Sam69]

I would think it reasonable to expect that a contract of this complexity would take some time to finalize. Rest assured that work continues on the contract and I would expect an announcement by the end of the month and almost certainly by the end of the year.

Patience guys, it took 26 years to get to this point, a few more days won't hurt.

Sam

 

[Sam69]

I would think it reasonable to expect that a contract of this complexity would take some time to finalize. Rest assured that work continues on the contract and I would expect an announcement by the end of the month and almost certainly by the end of the year.

As expected:

Government of Canada Awards Contracts to Sikorsky for New Canadian Forces Maritime Helicopter

NRâ “04.090 - November 23, 2004

OTTAWA â ” The Government of Canada today announced the signing of two separate but interrelated contracts with Sikorsky International Operations Inc. for the Maritime Helicopter Project.

The first contract, worth $1.8 billion, covers the acquisition of 28 fully integrated, certified and qualified helicopters with their mission systems installed.

The second contract, valued at $3.2 billion, is for the 20-year in-service support for the helicopters, and includes the construction of a training facility, as well as a simulation and training suite.

â Å“The CH-148 Cyclone will provide our men and women in uniform with a helicopter that can perform the diverse and difficult roles required in today's global security environment,â ? said Defence Minister Bill Graham. â Å“This acquisition is one that will provide significant economic benefits to Canadian companies from coast to coast for decades to come.â ?

â Å“The awarding of these contracts marks the end of an extremely rigorous procurement process, through which Canada has purchased the right helicopter for the Canadian Forces at the best price for Canadians,â ? said the Honourable Scott Brison, Minister of Public Works and Government Services.

â Å“The Canadian Forces are increasingly called upon to respond to challenging and complex operations throughout the world,â ? said General Ray Henault, Chief of the Defence Staff. â Å“The CH-148 Cyclone provides us with a robust, multi-role helicopter that will support our maritime operations well into the future.â ?

Delivery of the first helicopter, to be called the CH-148 Cyclone, is required to be no later than November 2008, with the remaining helicopters to be delivered at a rate of one per month thereafter. The contract has a series of bonuses for early delivery but also imposes penalties for late delivery, making it very much in the company's interest to deliver the helicopters as soon as possible.