Another Layton press conference against the mission

[DaveTee]

My only point was to show that relative to the size of the mission it's still significant...consider the waters muddy  ...

 

[Yrys]

Your numers are deceiving.

Have I muddied the waters sufficiently yet?

Haggis, remember me to PM you if I ever want to understand some numbers or stats ...

 

[3rd Herd]

Believe what you want, and I'll do likewise.

Here's a fact:

History is a social science; therefore, the findings of historians are hypothesis; if their findings are hypothesis, they just cannot be qualified as facts. How do you explain differences of interpretation between two historians writing about the same event ?

Opinion...not facts. :brickwall:

Hypothesis:
1 a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument
1b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action
2 : a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences
3 : the antecedent clause of a conditional statement

 

[DaveTee]

3rd Herd:

your right in that it was definitely a combined effort...but the Russians did more than just take out Army Group Center. You mention Normandy and the Ardennes, all important battles...but they occurred in 1944...who was continually fighting, other then the British in north Africa? The Russians wore down the Germans a lot more in terms of men and tanks, which eventually brought them to Berlin. However both fronts would have been hard if not impossible to win victory if it weren't for the other allies. It was teamwork. However the claim can be made that the Soviets destroyed the German army because the losses for the Germans in tanks and aircraft and men were far higher on the eastern front, the battles involved a lot more tanks (where Soviet T-34's, KV, and IS tanks could actually kill the Panzers, as opposed to lend-lease Sherman's). And if you want to name drop books you've read as a valid argument, try reading "Panzer Battles" by Friedrich von Mellenthin, he was a staff officer and was involved personally from Poland to the end of the war.

The Eastern Front of the European Theatre of World War II encompassed the conflict in central and eastern Europe from June 22, 1941 to May 8, 1945. It was the largest theatre of war in history and was notorious for its unprecedented ferocity, destruction, and immense loss of life. The fighting involved millions of German and Soviet troops along a broad front. It was by far the deadliest single theatre of war in World War II, with over 5 million deaths on the Axis Forces; Soviet military deaths were about 10.6 million (out of which 3.6 million Soviets died in German captivity), and civilian deaths were about 14 to 17 million. The Eastern Front contained more combat than all the other European fronts combined; the European axis suffered 75% to 85% of all casualties there. The fate of the Third Reich was decided at Stalingrad and sealed at Kursk. The cost to the Soviet Union was an estimated 27 million dead, about half of all World War II casualties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#Soviet-German_War

DISCLAIMER: This is mostly just opinion based on books read and documentaries etc. Sorry if anything is innacurate, but i believe the gist of it is sensible.

 

[3rd Herd]

3rd Herd:

And if you want to name drop books you've read as a valid argument, try reading "Panzer Battles" by Friedrich von Mellenthin, he was a staff officer and was involved personally from Poland to the end of the war.

on my shelf along with many more. And I FAIL students who cite wiki as a source.  ;D

edit to add:

a brief list: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37380/post-311017.html#msg311017

 

[DaveTee]

sweet. i didn't mean that as a personal jab,  when i re-read it just now it does come across as one...i just thought it was a good book and wikipedia is all i have access to at work...plus some articles there are well written. anyhow...

Nice list too...where did you find Zhukov's book?

 

[3rd Herd]

sweet. i didn't mean that as a personal jab,  when i re-read it just now it does come across as one...i just thought it was a good book and wikipedia is all i have access to at work...plus some articles there are well written. anyhow...

Nice list too...where did you find Zhukov's book?

No offence taken, met the keeper of the military reading list at RMC and he suggested some that I was missing so I have grabbed those as well. That list is most likely double now but does not include a two foot high stack of journal articles I have also collected. As to Zhukov's books according to your profile the closet place is Book Bazaar across the river in Ottawa. They have two hard cover copies, but on abe book's web site there are several paperback copies real cheap. 

 

[3rd Herd]

Full Comment
Jonathan Kay on Afghanistan, our six dead, and Jack Layton's disgraceful response

Jonathan Kay on Afghanistan, our six dead, and Jack Layton's disgraceful response
Jack Layton didn’t waste any time in handing the Taliban a propaganda victory yesterday. No sooner did news reach Canadians shores about the death of six of our soldiers than the NDP leader again urged an end to Canadian military operations in Afghanistan. Speaking at a press conference on Wednesday, Mr. Layton declared that “This simply underlines, with this escalating death toll of the soldiers and of civilians in Afghanistan, that this mission is going in the wrong way.”

Mr. Layton symbolizes why the West may just lose the battle against militant Islam: As soon as our enemies draw blood, he reflexively raises the white flag higher, offering to withdraw from whatever part of the world the jihadis happen to be targeting.

In this respect, Mr. Layton is a sad symbol of what has become of leftist politics: The same bleeding hearts who once urged Western politicians to help the world’s poor and afflicted now run for the exits when peacemaking and nation-building turn tough. In the case of Afghanistan, in particular, this defeatism is grimly ironic coming, as it is, from a politician who postures as the champion of gay rights and feminism: But not for the presence of brave NATO troops, the country would fall into the hands of Medieval theocrats who behead homosexuals and treat women like Burka-clad dogs................................http://communities.canada.com/nationalpost/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2007/07/04/jonathan-kay-on-afghanistan-our-six-dead-and-jack-layton-s-disgraceful-response.aspx

 

[Greymatters]

The Russians wore down the Germans a lot more in terms of men and tanks, which eventually brought them to Berlin. However both fronts would have been hard if not impossible to win victory if it weren't for the other allies. 

Just to add an unwanted third side to this, it wasnt the allies or Russia who won the war - it was the multiple Russian winters and Hitler's egomania that lost Germany the war.

 

[Hawk]

Did you hear? united93 has been banned!! He reminds me of someone I met in another forum -thick as soup, and right all the time, even, or maybe I should say especially when he's wrong! If it is him - I think he's banned there, too - he hasn't appeared there for 3 weeks. If he keeps it up, he may as well sell his computer.

Sorry to hijack the conversation - back to the topic at hand . . .


Hawk

 

[Hawk]

The political cartoon in today's Winnipeg Sun:

http://www.winnipegsun.com/Comment/Cartoon/2007/07/06/4317104.html


Hawk

 

[Danjanou]

Did you hear? united93 has been banned!!

For the record united93 aka silverbach aka more other names and personas than I really care to note here is a rather pathetic and possibly disturbed young man who has developed an unhealthy addicition to this site.

Danjanou
milnet staff

 

[Haggis]

For the record united93 aka silverbach aka more other names and personas than I really care to note here is a rather pathetic and possibly disturbed young man who has developed an unhealthy addicition to this site.

C'mon.. tell us what you REALLY think!

At least he seems to share some traits with Taliban Jack.

 

[canadianblue]

I'd say I support alot of the NDP's domestic policies, but in terms of foreign policy they are completely out of whack with reality. First things first to believe that it's going to be no problem to negotiate with the Taliban is overly simplistic, especially considering that this is an organization which is basically against everything which involves a liberal democracy. The ironic thing is that the Taliban is everything the NDP should be against with reference to womens rights, minority rights, democracy, social services, etc. I think that the NDP is doing a disservice to those Canadian's who support alot of what they do here at home, yet are somewhat angered to see them support a negotiation process which would be puerile at best.

PS: I've met some New Democrats who strongly disagree with Jack Layton's stance on Afghanistan. I think that Peter Stoffer dissented with Jack Layton on Afghanistan as well.

 

[Harbinger]

I wonder if united93 was the same guy posting that crap over at Matthew Good's site - 442 guy. The SAR chopper in his sig and flavour of his posts makes me a suspicious aloisius.

 

[armyvern]

I wonder if united93 was the same guy posting that crap over at Matthew Good's site - 442 guy. The SAR chopper in his sig and flavour of his posts makes me a suspicious aloisius.

If it was United93 and he said he was a 442 guy ... he's a poser.  United93 is not in the military....anymore. 

 

[Loachman]

Seen this on CPAC last night and the reporter from Canwest Global tore jack a new arsehole. Something about WWII being resolved through troops marching into Berlin and atomic bombs being dropped on Japan. I guess Jack missed that part in his socialist revisionist history class. :

That was John Robson. He's a pretty good guy, and he and his fellow-journalist wife have participated in numerous exercises. He wrote an amusing column about this little engagement with Jack. I would have liked to have seen it on television, though.

 

[Danjanou]

That was John Robson. He's a pretty good guy, and he and his fellow-journalist wife have participated in numerous exercises. He wrote an amusing column about this little engagement with Jack. I would have liked to have seen it on television, though.

Any chance of a link to the column? I missed the TV clip too.

 

[3rd Herd]

Jack was also on "Question Period" on Sunday afternoon. Got another real good hammering.
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