Another example of tolerance abroad

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Well a case like this sure brings out the anti-religious/spiritual bigots doesn't it? Thanks to those who have labelled all persons of faith as wack jobs and looney tunes. Oh yeah and especialy to the guy who loves to generalize "all religious leaders are fanatics,"(you know who you are). As a religious leader myself I assure you that my views are very similar to that of the "norm" in Canadian society and "organised" helps me and a whole lot of other folks stay on track, rather than blow with the wind on every new trend that hits the streets, your blanket condemnation extends to a lot of wonderful and generous people who serve alongside you.

The agenda in Sudan is much the same as the agenda under the Taliban in Afghanistan....it's not so much about religion (although that's what the hate mongers have disguised it as) as it is about anti-Westernism.  This woman never had a chance from the get go....she was a babe in wonderland. The agenda of the government of Sudan ,which is dominated by anti-Western sentiment, is to get rid of the school and it's influence....she is a convenient scape goat.

 

[Flip]

Just to interject....

Islam isn't "organized" the same way Christianity is. One could argue that this lack of structure
has something to do with why Islam develops differently.  Or one could say Islam has in
some cases slipped back or devolved of late.  Depends where you are.  Depends on culture.

I agree with InHoc - I think "Darfur" is the same "enemy" in a different place than Afghanistan.
It's a ploy for influence in both regions.  It has more to do with Arab culture than Islam.

I've said it before - If you don't have a faith it's unreasonable to claim knowledge of or make
a pronouncement about those who do. 

Yes Christianity has a checkered past. But it also has some astonishing successes.
Not the least of which, is to participate in the pluralist and perimissive staus quo we call freedom.
The first words spoken by the Imam who spoke at the US national memorial in Washington
after 9-11 were " There is no morality without free choice". I believe this to be true. 

Gee, I hope InHoc agrees with me, now that I've paraphrased....

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Well a case like this sure brings out the anti-religious/spiritual bigots doesn't it? Thanks to those who have labelled all persons of faith as wack jobs and looney tunes. Oh yeah and especialy to the guy who loves to generalize "all religious leaders are fanatics,"(you know who you are). As a religious leader myself I assure you that my views are very similar to that of the "norm" in Canadian society and "organised" helps me and a whole lot of other folks stay on track, rather than blow with the wind on every new trend that hits the streets, your blanket condemnation extends to a lot of wonderful and generous people who serve alongside you.

The agenda in Sudan is much the same as the agenda under the Taliban in Afghanistan....it's not so much about religion (although that's what the hate mongers have disguised it as) as it is about anti-Westernism.  This woman never had a chance from the get go....she was a babe in wonderland. The agenda of the government of Sudan ,which is dominated by anti-Western sentiment, is to get rid of the school and it's influence....she is a convenient scape goat.

So in your first paragraph, you get mad at people who generalize, then make general statements about those type of people. 
Your second paragraph suggests that the Sudanese government is using religion as a malleable tool to leverage an anti-western agenda.  Which was perhaps part of my point about organized religion.  ???
Seems a bit contradictory.

Flip, I think you could capably argue that there has been some pretty impressive organization on the part of various Islamic groups (not always for good, mind you) which, given the goals they were striving towards, would count as resounding success.
I myself am not anti-religious and count myself as a Christian.  I just don't think that the Catholic Church is in any real position to hold up a banner and call themselves The Right Ones (good intentions aside). 

 

[George Wallace]

You have to remember what we have discussed in previous topics about what is happening in the Islamic world.  There is a war/competition on between many Islamic states as to whom is the real 'home of Islam'.  Sudan is one of those nations.  Iran is another.  Iraq is another.  Not only are fundamentalist Muslims anti-West, but they are also deeply against other Muslims who do not fit their views of Islam. 

It is not a simple straight forward case of a 'Clash of Religions' or 'Clash of Civilizations'; it is a heck of a lot more complicated than that. 

 

[midget-boyd91]

Well, I'll throw in my 2 cents worth now. Not sure if it's really worth those 2 cents, but hey.
  I honestly don't think that religion has anything to do with what happened, whats happening, or what will happen. Why? Because humans are humans, and when a human is brought up from a child with war, murder, rape, and extremism surrounding it.. the odds are pretty damn good that said human isn't going to be the nicest person to be around.
  In my little opinion it is all about the region.. not religion. Take 5 newborns from out in the sticks, hickville Canada, and have them raised by a family in  Mogadishu and go take a look at them once they've grown. I can give you a pretty safe estimate on what will be seen:
  Magadishu Baby: Pending the baby survived its childhood to become an adult, you will see a low level of tolerance. When it has been offended by somebody, don't be surprised if he picks up an AK and kills whomever offended him, and their entire family. Why? Because violence and lawlessness is rampid in Mogadishu, and this person was brought up with that sence of lawlessness as a norm.
  Take a baby from the streets of Mogadishu and raise it in Hickville Canada, you're going to have a coloured redneck.
  The religion doesn't have anything to do with it... they have all just lived with a extreme views their entire lives. If the roles were reversed, and Europe was predominatly Muslim when the Europeans started settling in the New World, we would have Korans on our nightstands instead of Holy Bibles. Many of us would stop going to Mosques, instead of not going to church, and we would have Christian radicals throughout Africa, the Middle East etc.
Theres my 2 cents./ Hopefully I was able to get what was in my head into writing that was at least semi-comprehendable, and doesn't just look like mindless jabber.

midget



 
 

 

[Flip]

I just don't think that the Catholic Church is in any real position to hold up a banner and call themselves The Right Ones (good intentions aside). 

Unless you're giving them credit for keeping excellent records.... ;D

Mom is Catholic, Dad was Methodist - I'm nominally Baptist. ( Catholic for tax purposes )
I think maybe the "right ones" are the ones you're with?.......... No, I messed that up. 

I suspect tolerance is fading notion in today's world.  Global media helps us all stay angry.
And I don't think I would suggest that religious circumstances are as interchangeable as
Uncle Midget Boyd is suggesting. 
I'm pretty sure George has it about right. -  A big competition to lead the ....revolution?

 

[Traveller]

In some ways i disagree with your region assessment. there are countless examples of people who have been in those wartorn countries. And grown up with violence, and hatred and death and dismemberment. There are germans who lived during the nazi occupation and never reduced themselves to killing jewish people. In other places like mogadishu a large portion of those people get old enough to understand some basic human element and leave the area/country/beleif system. I'm not saying all of these people escape that cycle, but i think there is a bit of a generalization when you say "Pending the baby survived its childhood to become an adult, you will see a low level of tolerance."  

This is why we have people who are refugees. its not black and white. And religion does have alot to do with the islamic side of things. Its used alot as a justification in many of the conflics from dafur to iraq to <insert location here>. Just as catholism was used during the crusades(Dont take offence, i went to catholic school).

There is no perfect world where everyone acts the same. Often these people are indoctrinated into the process, and are shown only one side of a view. Hence my segway *back into the topic*: The woman was overseas trying to do what she thought was right, in a non violent way, and show that the west/britan/christians/humans are not all painted the same color. I wonder how those kids will grow up? I would hope that they remember their teddy bear, and when they get old/mature enough to weigh the facts that they remember, maybe decide that killing their teacher would not have been a morally correct choice. We grow judging of our parent generations method of handling things. Many islamic countries give birth to children that look at how their violent parents act, and learn that wearing jeans or drinking coke or showing their hair is not a 'stonable' offence, and they fight for that right.

An example of this is some of the old school Sikh dads wont allow their daughters to marry white guys. There have been deaths. But it doesnt mean that the brothers of these daughters turn out to be like dad.

<end rant>

Sorry for the length. Just my 1.50$

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Just for point of clarification:
I am not saying any particular religion is good or bad, and they all have their good and bad points (of course, Heavens Gate kind of had a bad retirement package).  My point is that any organized religion has the potential to be selectively interpreted by a power monger with an agenda, or a zealot with a homicidal urge.  As with all tools, they can be used for building or destruction. 

 

[Flip]

I am not saying any particular religion is good or bad

I think you'd be on safe ground if you said Wahabism is a net negative. 

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I think you'd be on safe ground if you said Wahabism is a net negative. 

Maybe, but I would hate to get labeled an

anti-religious/spiritual bigot

 

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Just for point of clarification:
I am not saying any particular religion is good or bad, and they all have their good and bad points (of course, Heavens Gate kind of had a bad retirement package).  My point is that any organized religion has the potential to be selectively interpreted by a power monger with an agenda, or a zealot with a homicidal urge.  As with all tools, they can be used for building or destruction. 

I think you're right....any organized thing can have that potential....political parties, international charities etc....wherever people are involved has the potential for corruption. Religion has done enormously good things too which gets forgotten often...the goodness of Mother Theresa, the part that Catholicism had in Poland with the influence of the last Pope in helping them break the influence of communism etc. and the influence Christianity had in the development of our way of life in NA and the rule of law.
My reference to religious/spiritual bigot was aimed at someone else who was lumping all "organised religions" as the work of loonies and wack jobs.

 

[DBA]

Just for point of clarification:
I am not saying any particular religion is good or bad, and they all have their good and bad points (of course, Heavens Gate kind of had a bad retirement package).  My point is that any organized religion has the potential to be selectively interpreted by a power monger with an agenda, or a zealot with a homicidal urge.  As with all tools, they can be used for building or destruction. 

Religion holds no monoply here. Hitler, Mao, Hirohito and Stalin and the movements they were part of were all just as supremacist as some religious movements and caused incalculable misery and death. All are a path to ruin through the actions they take and their intolerance to other ideas.

 

[midget-boyd91]

  ...And religion does have alot to do with the islamic side of things. Its used alot as a justification in many of the conflicts ...

Yep, thats about what I had in my head when I started rambling on.... because they have been brought up with extreme lines in the way Islam has been practiced, they can use Islam as justification for many of their acts (eg. Saudi rape victim etc). Here, the lines of whats acceptable/not acceptable aren't as...harsh, if someone commits a sin or breaks a commandment, so we don't need to use religion as a means of justification.
  Had I been able to explain that better in my first attempt, I probably could have saved myself from typing so much.

 

[geo]

Take a baby from the streets of Mogadishu and raise it in Hickville Canada, you're going to have a coloured redneck.

UMB,
If you look at the wave of immigrants who moved to the UK at the end of the Imperial Raj, the majority did just that.  The dressed like the Brits and did their damndest to integrate with the UK population.  For the most part, they did quite well.  Unfortunately, some of the next generation appears to have hit a brick wall.  With limited employment prospects, many sons of immigrants have found themselves put down.  They have also gone about learning a radical version of the religion their parents might have treated in the same way as we have treated Christianity.

An ugly combination.... the home grown islamists....