Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[markppcli]

As I said, we control the mechanisms and qualifiers for who gets these allowances.

1) I've stated already the Army completely FUBAR'd LDA and has never worked to fix it, that I know of.
2) Make MELs a disqualifier for LDA/SDA. Example, unfit sea = No sea pay, regardless of the billet your are posted into.

That actually is already a thing. If your on MELs that preclude you from going to the field you lose LDA. Enforcement of the policy is command dependent. I’ve conducted… I guess you could look at it like an audit of guys in Mel’s to see if they’d hit the 1 CMBG limit.

 

[markppcli]

This is why I think a change toward a large bonus for being in the field/at sea, and removal of the monthly payments is needed. It won't initially be popular, but if it can be shown that it rewards/compensates for actual sea/field time, and doesn't allow for gaming, people will come around.

Que every unit outside of Edmonton now bringing their soldiers home every night to avoid that pesky field pay admin.

 

[dapaterson]

Que every unit outside of Edmonton now bringing their soldiers home every night to avoid that pesky field pay admin.

Leadership again...

 

[dangerboy]

Que every unit outside of Edmonton now bringing their soldiers home every night to avoid that pesky field pay admin.

That is what happened in the early 1990's when we had field pay. Our company was doing training but we did not have the budget for field pay so we would have weapons draw at 0700 hrs and then be out all day turning in weapons around 2200 hrs and then dismissed for the night. It made for long tiring days and people were drawing cots and crashing on base.

 

[Quirky]

Que every unit outside of Edmonton now bringing their soldiers home every night to avoid that pesky field pay admin.

Speaking of admin, I don’t know how we haven’t moved to a bar-code ID card like the Americans have. One card for everything - Mil ID, 404s, GRA, PKI, PSP pass, etc.

 

[Furniture]

Que every unit outside of Edmonton now bringing their soldiers home every night to avoid that pesky field pay admin.

Then they deserve to lose all the members that quit.

If the CAF can't learn how to not treat it's people like crap, then the CAF can continue to lose people.

 

[markppcli]

That is what happened in the early 1990's when we had field pay. Our company was doing training but we did not have the budget for field pay so we would have weapons draw at 0700 hrs and then be out all day turning in weapons around 2200 hrs and then dismissed for the night. It made for long tiring days and people were drawing cots and crashing on base.

And that is exactly the kind of “gaming the system” LDA stops. It’s also meant to compensate you for the realities of operational unit life so how that would be covered by casual LDA I have no idea. If the CAF does cut LDA my release goes in that day.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Make the time required for LDA less then... Make it 2 hours equals a day.

If COs want to play fast and loose then tighten it up.

But @Furniture is right, the unit that does that doesn't deserve the people it has.

 

[Fabius]

Tangent alert: This is, IMO, a cultural thing which would require wholesale change to the RCN and CA.

When the prevailing culture in the Army and Navy is something from the 1800s (or before), and “calling your boss by their first name” is a joke levelled at the Air Force, folks shouldn’t be Pikachu-shocked that the cultural gap between ranks is wider in the RCN and CA than the RCAF. The closest I’ve seen an “aircrew” mentality was on the MCDVs, but that was decades ago.

I’m not sure how the RCN and CA can change that, or if they even want to. Even the Aussies, famous for being easygoing about most things, still have a more rigid rank system in the RAN and Aus Army than the RAAF, and they have the same complaints.

Out of curiosity what are the complaints in the current CA culture between the officers and NCMs and OR?

What is the cultural gap that is present?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

And that is exactly the kind of “gaming the system” LDA stops. It’s also meant to compensate you for the realities of operational unit life so how that would be covered by casual LDA I have no idea. If the CAF does cut LDA my release goes in that day.

We are hiring FYI. I need bodies right now and we pay by the mile, not the hour .

 

[markppcli]

Out of curiosity what are the complaints in the current CA culture between the officers and NCMs and OR?

What is the cultural gap that is present?

Well I dont know that modern society is really okay with people being ordered to hold doors / serve wine / ect open for mess dinners anymore as an example.

If you don’t think there’s a massive gap in culture and what is acceptable between officers and NCOs consider what would happen if a Duty Officer inspected the single living in quarters to discover 20 privates playing crum. Then consider the single living accommodation differences. Not saying they shouldn’t be different building just why are they different standards of accommodation ?

 

[Remius]

Well I dont know that modern society is really okay with people being ordered to hold doors / serve wine / ect open for mess dinners anymore as an example.

Is that still a thing in some units? I was pretty sure it was directed to stop doing that over two decades ago. I remember doing that once in the 90s. Was important to taste test every bottle that was used…

If you don’t think there’s a massive gap in culture and what is acceptable between officers and NCOs consider what would happen if a Duty Officer inspected the single living in quarters to discover 20 privates playing crum. Then consider the single living accommodation differences. Not saying they shouldn’t be different building just why are they different standards of accommodation ?

Privilege and outdated tradition would be my guess.

 

[dimsum]

If you don’t think there’s a massive gap in culture and what is acceptable between officers and NCOs consider what would happen if a Duty Officer inspected the single living in quarters to discover 20 privates playing crum. Then consider the single living accommodation differences. Not saying they shouldn’t be different building just why are they different standards of accommodation ?

Agreed.

When I hear folks poking fun at RCAF folks in hotels (and not two to a room anymore, I believe), my response is “well, the Cpl Flight Engineer makes sure that I’m not losing engines 1000nm from home. The Avr AES Op makes sure that as the Radar person, I’m not running into another aircraft and/or cumulus granitus. Those folks need to be as as switched on, and therefore as rested, as the Pilots and TACCOs.”

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Agreed.

When I hear folks poking fun at RCAF folks in hotels (and not two to a room anymore, I believe), my response is “well, the Cpl Flight Engineer makes sure that I’m not losing engines 1000nm from home. The Avr AES Op makes sure that as the Radar person, I’m not running into another aircraft and/or cumulus granitus. Those folks need to be as as switched on, and therefore as rested, as the Pilots and TACCOs.”

Depends on the place/operation/hotel room supply whether people are doubling up, or not.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Well I dont know that modern society is really okay with people being ordered to hold doors / serve wine / ect open for mess dinners anymore as an example.

If you don’t think there’s a massive gap in culture and what is acceptable between officers and NCOs consider what would happen if a Duty Officer inspected the single living in quarters to discover 20 privates playing crum. Then consider the single living accommodation differences. Not saying they shouldn’t be different building just why are they different standards of accommodation ?

Hate to say it but rules for thee and not for me isn't unique to the Military. It's a feature in the Corporate World as well.

 

[dimsum]

Hate to say it but rules for thee and not for me isn't unique to the Military. It's a feature in the Corporate World as well.

Years ago, a civilian buddy of mine who had a pretty long career in the private sector said something that still resounds with me:

“In the private sector, your boss is pretty much allowed to be an ass to you. You can complain, but you best be looking at another line of work.”

 

[Fabius]

Well I dont know that modern society is really okay with people being ordered to hold doors / serve wine / ect open for mess dinners anymore as an example.

No mess dinner that I have attended in my memory has featured ORs doing any of that. It’s always been civilian catering staff.

If you don’t think there’s a massive gap in culture and what is acceptable between officers and NCOs consider what would happen if a Duty Officer inspected the single living in quarters to discover 20 privates playing crum. Then consider the single living accommodation differences. Not saying they shouldn’t be different building just why are they different standards of accommodation ?

Is there an actual difference in the single living in accommodation policy? Is it just that our infrastructure is not being upgraded as fast as it should?

I have not said whether I think there is a gap or not, nor whether there is or is not reasons for said gaps. I am simply interested in what people think the gap is and why.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

When the prevailing culture in the Army and Navy is something from the 1800s (or before), and “calling your boss by their first name” is a joke levelled at the Air Force, folks shouldn’t be Pikachu-shocked that the cultural gap between ranks is wider in the RCN and CA than the RCAF. The closest I’ve seen an “aircrew” mentality was on the MCDVs, but that was decades ago.

Hmmm. I think that your very limited exposure to the interactions within the CA may have allowed you to fall prey to exactly the same stereotyping that you say is being applied to the RCAF.

I am not certain that many RCAF or RCN Formation Commanders attend their driver's stag, get into a fight protecting his buddies, and consider that a day of applied leadership, although I have personally witnessed that in the CA. The examples are many...the stereotyping is easy.

I think that we should agree that styles make fights, just as the type of fights makes styles. No good appearing at a Muy Thai fight with a fencer....or at a gun fight with awesome MMA skills, or a hockey game with a cricketeer.

Throughout my career, I trusted my compatriots in the other services to provide the leadership demanded by their culture to have the necessary effect....although I probably mocked them (gently) for the difference from the approach in my world.

 

[markppcli]

No mess dinner that I have attended in my memory has featured ORs doing any of that. It’s always been civilian catering staff.

Last mess function I was at had two Gunners opening the doors for us. Explain that as a valuable use of their time.

Is there an actual difference in the single living in accommodation policy? Is it just that our infrastructure is not being upgraded as fast as it should?

In policy or in actuality? The differences are very very stark in Shilo. Junior Officers quarters have essentially a suite with living rooms, bed room, and a bathroom. Meanwhile a new MCpl we have posted in has to walk the other end of the hall to use the washroom. The SNCO single living in isn’t much better. Why is there three standards of accommodation all based on rank? The temporary accommodation in Gagetown is 100 percent separated by rank with Cpls, even PLQ qualified and instructing, house 4 to a room with Sgt and Up get hotel rooms in D60.

I have not said whether I think there is a gap or not, nor whether there is or is not reasons for said gaps. I am simply interested in what people think the gap is and why.

Look I’m not saying there isn’t supposed to be perks as we move up. What I am saying is that we clearly do have a gap, and it presents itself most apparently in accommodations. While it may not be policy, it is application which probably speaks to our culture.

Actually let’s looks at socializing while we are at it. It is absolutely unacceptable to encourage drinking / have initiations in the junior ranks. But subby carolling / regimental indocs are acceptable and actively supported by units. This is another example of the gaps.

I am not certain that many RCAF or RCN Formation Commanders attend their driver's stag, get into a fight protecting his buddies, and consider that a day of applied leadership, although I have personally witnessed that in the CA. The examples are many...the stereotyping is easy.

I’m pretty sure they don’t get into fights at Brigade smokers either….

 

[SeaKingTacco]

No mess dinner that I have attended in my memory has featured ORs doing any of that. It’s always been civilian catering staff.



Is there an actual difference in the single living in accommodation policy? Is it just that our infrastructure is not being upgraded as fast as it should?

I have not said whether I think there is a gap or not, nor whether there is or is not reasons for said gaps. I am simply interested in what people think the gap is and why.

I have not seen an NCM (excepting stewards) serve food at a Mess dinner for decades.

As for quarters: the standard is set nationally- it is a private room, with semi-private bathroom and a kitchenette (except training quarters). It is not set by rank. If one is unfortunate enough to go on TD to Shearwater, Warrior Block provides accommodations. It is a 1950s era barrack block, with rats, insects, crappy water and no HVAC. The washrooms are prison style and serve 50-ish clients, each.

The rooms are allocated by length of stay (there are a few suites that are adequate). Perfectly normal for an Aviator to get a suite, with a private bathroom, while a Major gets a room with a stain on the carpet that looks like a recent murder took place there and no bathroom, except the common one down the hall…

Meanwhile, across the harbour in Stadacona, the standard is markedly higher in both Juno and Tribute Towers (assuming there is actually water and functioning HVAC in both, but I digress…)