All Things Combat Diver (merged)

[Sapper6]

All,

I'm inflating the BC on this thread as it was going negative buouyant on me.  Needed to bring it up to the surface for some fresh air.

Any divers from 1 CER, 2 CER, 5e RGC or 4 ESR out there who can give us an update on current dive training?  What's everyone doing out there?  Hopefully, not just currency dives in the Base pool?  :-\

S6

 

[392]

What's everyone doing out there?  Hopefully, not just currency dives in the Base pool?  :-\

Here in Pet, we're lucky to be even getting that. The current Op tempo is absolutely killing us. Trying to get the minimum number of divers together to even conduct a basic CABA dive more than once a month or two is proving to be much more difficult than it should be.....

 

[joe]

That's the thing about trying to move things forward here at the ADC. We're trying to take on additional responsibilities, capabilities, and eqpt yet the teams are diving less; however, it's not just the Army in this situation by any stretch. Everyone is diving less. Dive Os need to push for more water time and use a broad range of eqpt. Being satisfied with a half mask/wetsuit dive is not doing your job.

I think everyone is aware that D Dive S shut down unit run "wet" prelims this year. Although the ADC was ready to go to each unit to run them, that wasn't sufficient. Thus, each unit is running a partial dry prelim on its own. All this does "in the name of safety" is greatly increase the likelihood of candidate failure.

Hopefully, things can be reviewed for next year.

 

[joe]

Just thought I'd info "the community" that Ex ROGUISH BUOY 07 will be happening in Jan 08 out in Esquimalt (so, shouldn't that be Ex RB 08 you ask? Still using FY 07/08 money, so I'll keep it as 07). So, put your wetsuits and half-masks away. Focus will be on cutting, deep dives, LWSSDS, run whatever delta trg we need to catch divers up, tools, and one or two surprises.

Looking at holding it at Albert Head for the duration. Depending on space aval at FDU(P), they might be able to squeeze us in for some trg to be conducted in the camber. I know, I know, all nice visibility salt water dives. Geez, the ADC spoils you guys. Final dates will be confirmed during recce in two weeks, but mid to end-Jan would be most likely. Op O will be out before end July (fingers crossed).

To unit teams, I know you're busy. Keep pushing to get in the water. Nights, weekends, pauses in pre-deploy trg schedule, it can be done.

Questions/concerns? Any "orphan" divers out there (RSS, HQ-types) who want to go on "the buoy" that I might miss? Let me know.

 

[Sapper6]

Joe,

Thanks again for the update - keep 'em coming!

No guarantees but I may try to come out for a visit to RB 07.

S6

 

[Sapper6]

All,

Just got word that the CLS is not happy with Corps-specific training.  In other words, Bridge Camps for Sappers and Gun Camps for Gunners.

Bottom line - Ex RB may be in jeopardy in its present form.

Food for thought.

S6 out.

 

[geo]

S6 any particular period of time when we should practice our bridging?
Or is this a case where we will have to practice our bridging in a pre exercise excercise?

 

[Spr.Earl]

All,

Just got word that the CLS is not happy with Corps-specific training.  In other words, Bridge Camps for Sappers and Gun Camps for Gunners.

Bottom line - Ex RB may be in jeopardy in its present form.

Food for thought.

S6 out.

S6 you must be kidding?
I'm not a diver, but I do know the MAJOR EX for our divers is Ex.RB and it can take place any where in Canada with your guest's and all your toy's that you play with and all learn form each other.

My figures are crossed for you all.

Nick

 

[Sapper6]

Geo and Spr Earl,

The CLS is not saying we can't dive or conduct bridge training.  He is just saying that we cannot have our own exercises anymore.  In other words, we need to incorporate diving, bridging, and all other combate engineer tasks into exercises that include the other arms, or even the other elements (Navy and Air Force) in order to make them "Collective" or in some cases "Joint".

While I agree that we all need to work together.  My experience is that we often need to conduct our own training first before we go "live" so to speak, with other arms.  This means that an exclusive dive ex is not a bad thing if it designed to hone individual or team skills.  Perhaps it is just about communicating our needs a little better.

Comments?

S6

 

[Kat Stevens]

I see a return to the 6-8 week summer and 3 week winter concentrations ahead, if this is the case.  How else is the "crawl, walk, run" principle going to work?  Sounds a little micro managerial to me.

 

[geo]

from my perspective, we'll be having the guests over before we have our sh!%$ together.
Which means not getting as much bang for our buck & tying up valuable resources longer than we need to.

 

[Sapper6]

from my perspective, we'll be having the guests over before we have our sh!%$ together.
Which means not getting as much bang for our buck & tying up valuable resources longer than we need to.

Agreed.

S6

 

[joe]

S6,

I'm all for collective exercises but am somewhat doubtful that diving would rate high enough on any large scale ex to be anything more than a single master events list (MEL) activity. And I know you're fully aware this would not result in anything near the trg level required by teams nor would it be anything remotely resembling an effective use of personnel and resources.

Ex RB is a niche ex that fills a niche capability trg requirement at present: Army diving. Should roles expand into an SCF-like responsibility, then naturally there is scope to go "collective." Do away with Ex RB and the 2-3 solid weeks of dive trg (indiv and team) - which we all know could go on much longer due to the scope of eqpt and possible tasks we are doctrinally responsible for - and we'll end up with a one or two MEL activity trg period on a larger ex and that would be really ineffective.

Similar to the "old days" when the Engrs put in "minefds" during large scale exercises. Armd and Inf comds weren't about to be held up from doing their trace in the allocated time because there was a notional minefd in the way...drive through it (and disregard the two nights of Fd Tp work it took to put in). For example, can anyone see a Bde/BG Comd on ex with fording site crossings planned waiting for the dive team to go through its day long clearance task without simply going around it?

We can be part of a larger ex, but we'll be off on our own doing trg, not with a BG lined up or awaiting the outcome of what we do. So, if that is the case, that we are off on our own, let's continue with what has been an effective, low cost, relatively high return ex in Ex RB (in places like Gagetown, Petawawa, Hfx, and Victoria) and not be a bit player in a "collective" ex putting mines in the Battle River.

Switching gears, dive training and manning are becoming serious issues. Teams are simply trying to stay current, proficiency is too difficult an objective to meet anymore, and our pool of divers continues to shrink. ADC launched the latest dive course today with 11 troops. Min load is supposed to be 12 while max is 18. Appreciate op tempo and op responsibilities but we lost 5 guys/girls over the last week before the flag dropped. I think units should have had a better grip on knowing who was available long ago. The supervisor course is "on the bubble" of being cancelled. Snake is eating its tail now. I hope we'll have a period to "regrow" a dive capability once TFK is wrapped up, because if the next op is coastal, we will not be where we should be (certainly not from a lack of trying at the ADC level I can tell you).

Joe

 

[Sapper6]

Joe,

No argument from me on your logic.  Ack.

Switching gears, dive training and manning are becoming serious issues. Teams are simply trying to stay current, proficiency is too difficult an objective to meet anymore, and our pool of divers continues to shrink. ADC launched the latest dive course today with 11 troops. Min load is supposed to be 12 while max is 18. Appreciate op tempo and op responsibilities but we lost 5 guys/girls over the last week before the flag dropped. I think units should have had a better grip on knowing who was available long ago. The supervisor course is "on the bubble" of being cancelled. Snake is eating its tail now. I hope we'll have a period to "regrow" a dive capability once TFK is wrapped up, because if the next op is coastal, we will not be where we should be (certainly not from a lack of trying at the ADC level I can tell you). Joe

As for your comments above, I also ack.  I have heard that 1 CER is having a very difficult time sourcing Dive Os and Dive Suprs due to op tempo (specifically TF 1-08 and PRT commitments).  It is a dark period for diving and COs are being forced to risk manage.  Not sure I would do anything differently...and I'm a diver!  Keep up the good work at ADC, there is definately a nugget there.  Good thing we run our own courses as I fear the Navy may have zero-loaded our courses under the arrangement we had 10 years ago!

S6

 

[joe]

I'm looking for some feedback on the following:

Not that long ago junior officers would arrive on the dive course and would leave 8-10 weeks later qualified both as a diver and as a dive supervisor. Two years ago a change in how training was delivered resulted in the inactivation of the Dive Offr qualification. The only qualifications we now have are diver and dive supervisor. For an officer to become a supervisor he/she will have to first complete the dive course, go back and dive with his/her unit for a year, and then return for a supervisor course.

There are two sides of this story where there are concerns:

On one side there is the argument that offrs can not/will not be able to return for a second course. Too busy, high op tempo. That will end up reducing the number of supervisors we will have. On the other side is the argument that the amount of eqpt to be intimately familiar with has increased, the technical aspects of eqpt have greatly increased since the days of half masks and horse collars, and the scope of diver tasks has somewhat increased so supervisors have even more responsibility and need additional training.

Anyone have comments on this?

 

[geo]

Joe,
From my perspective, I don't consider someone who is just now qualifying as a diver - able to grasp all the particularities of what it is to adequately perform as a dive supervisor.  The return trip will do them good and the unit will have to find the time to free up the officer for his supervisor course - the following year, after having gained some experience and insight into combat diving.

 

[Sapper6]

Joe,

Much as it pains me to say it (as I was trained under the old system), my intuition agrees with your current system for training officers to dive.  In other words, I wholeheartedly agree that the equipment has become much more technical and the tasks equally diverse.  Coming back to do the 3 week supervisor's course should not be a show stopper if an officer shows a particular aptitude.  For the record, I do not think a unit dive officer necessarily needs to be trained as a combat diver.  He just needs to have a good head on his shoulders and a good Dive NCO advising him.

FWIW.

S6.

 

[392]

I agree 100% that officers (or even NCM's for that matter) should not be Sup qualified right off the bat. To put it in perspective, do our Jumper brethren qualify their officers as JM's on their basic para course just because they're officers? No offense to the officer-types, but there is no replacement for experience, especially when dealing with someone's life at depth. I'm glad we went this way, and I hope it doesn't go back.

S6, you kind of dated yourself  ;D The Sup's course is 6 weeks now (maybe more?).

And please, don't get me started on the Dive O thing. After the schmozzle I went through this past year with non-qualified unit Dive O's, I have to disagree. If there is no Sup-qualified officer in the unit, I fully believe the units should be employing Para 104(2) from the Vol II where the senior sup is the Dive O (even employ a non-sup qual officer) instead of handing it off to another not-even-qualified officer in the unit. Not to get into it too much (gets my blood pressure up too much  :-X), but some just don't want to listen to experienced advice....

Edited for proper para from the 380...

 

[392]

There are two sides of this story where there are concerns:

On one side there is the argument that offrs can not/will not be able to return for a second course. Too busy, high op tempo. That will end up reducing the number of supervisors we will have. On the other side is the argument that the amount of eqpt to be intimately familiar with has increased, the technical aspects of eqpt have greatly increased since the days of half masks and horse collars, and the scope of diver tasks has somewhat increased so supervisors have even more responsibility and need additional training.

Anyone have comments on this?

As I said above, I agree 100% with the reasoning. However, what is the difference between an officer not being able to return for a sup's course, and a MCpl+ not being able to return due to Op Tempo? If anything, I think the push should be to get the NCM's back and qualified as they are the ones who will be staying in the unit and carrying the torch, so to speak, whereas most officers spend a couple years at most in the Regt before going off to greener pastures. I know they eventually come back (the Corps is like Hotel California, you can check out anytime, but you can never leave  ;D), but usually they come back into a 2IC or OC position, and they are busy enough running a Sqn, never mind trying to sup dives.

With the current rotation schedule, has there been any more thought to running extra serials every-other-year instead of Ex RB so the troops coming off tour can get up to speed and get qualified? Maybe even an extra basic serial to cover off on the tadpoles  ;D?

 

[FEEOP042]

392

Put your dive gear away you will not need it where you are going.  Ask for a heavy crse or finish your H crse's.

Is your blood pressure up....