All eyes on Ignatieff

[Brad Sallows]

>Contemplating any "other" solution is pretty scary in so many ways, Acorn.

Revolution doesn't have to be bloody.  A simple campaign of industrial and infrastructure sabotage could probably bring Canada to its economic knees.  Governments would quickly run short of money for big ideas if they had to run around fixing broken toys.  For example, consider the economic losses of a longshoremans' strike - which doesn't actually involve very many workers - and then consider that there might be other ways to shut down a port.  I don't worry about foreign terrorism so much as domestic sabotage by people fed up with being told how to live and without sufficient conscience to restrain themselves.  I've seen plenty of senseless vandalism and whatnot in my time, so I'm not sure there's much restraint in people, or at least I'm not sure that it's particularly difficult for frustration to overcome self-restraint.  That's why I'm so tirelessly monotonous on decentralizing and downsizing government in Canada: so that all folks can find their cultural optimum in some part of Canada and live content there. The Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - may very well be the linchpin of a civil society.  Unfortunately, Canada seems to be polarizing rather rapidly and the people currently in power aren't very gracious in victory.

 

[Wayne Coady]

That is what is happening today, and the politicians love it; we are IDIOTS in the ancient Greek sense of the word.

The "other" solution to having peaceful mass demonstrations is armed revolution, and I certainly don't want to be going there on either side of the barricades.

I never said stop voting, I said stop supporting the candidate who represents a political party. To hold a demonstration is stupid,it is sure to turn into a riot and that is something these thieving politicans would really like.
So =a_majoor link, please vote, but just do not vote for a political party and put your time and money into yourself.

 

[a_majoor]

Like I mentioned in the other thread, political parties are people of like mind grouping together to pool resources for common ends. If there were no political parties, people would create them (and have, right back to the very first Democracy in ancient Athens). Since 99% of the candidates presenting themselves to you will represent a political party, witholding your time, resources and vote will only make the entrenched parties that much stronger; they have knocked you out of contention.

Are you saying you will run as an independent in the next (presumptive) election? Bravo Zulu to you! If you were in or near my riding I will be over in a heartbeat to help. My personal interest is municipal politics, so I hope you are available to support me....

 

[Wayne Coady]

Majoor: I like the way municipal politics is set up, it is set up close to the people and candidates are independent , they are suppose to be free from political party structure and connection. With a little fine tuning they could be better improved. But that said municipal politics is better and closer to the people. BANG ON !!!!
Catch you later, off to a craft show.

 

[a_majoor]

Majoor: I like the way municipal politics is set up, it is set up close to the people and candidates are independent , they are suppose to be free from political party structure and connection. With a little fine tuning they could be better improved. But that said municipal politics is better and closer to the people. BANG ON !!!!
Catch you later, off to a craft show.

"Smiling Jack" Layton was always known as a full fledged socialist even as a Toronto City councillor, and our own City Council is the Liberal farm team (also with a few open socialists as well), so I wouldn't get to enamoured of the idea that there are no "party" affiliations either within municipal politics, or between levels of government (strange how our tax dollars are suddenly back in play from the Provincial Liberals and the Federal Liberals here in London [after taking their cut of the swag, of course]).

 

[Edward Campbell]

... our own City Council is the Liberal farm team (also with a few open socialists as well), so I wouldn't get to enamoured of the idea that there are no "party" affiliations either within municipal politics, or between levels of government ...

Ditto here in Ottawa - our municipial politicians are pretty clearly identified as Liberals, N'Dippers and Conservatives but, in fairness, they do not, generally, run as such.

 

[Wayne Coady]

Ditto here in Ottawa - our municipial politicians are pretty clearly identified as Liberals, N'Dippers and Conservatives but, in fairness, they do not, generally, run as such.

Once again we must stop supporting political parties. Yes councilors are associated with political parties this I know, but they are not suppose to drag their party affiliation with them , yet they do. Despite the fact that parties soil municipal government too, the bases on which municipal politics is suppose to function are well founded..

Our municipal candidates knock on our door looking for our support as independent candidates and if they are being guided by some political affiliation then maybe we should put a recall on them as well. Everyone on this form who posts on a political issue make it very clear that either one party or the other is not there to govern for the people put the party in power. I feel that the only way to correct this problem is to squash the party system, there is no other way to correct this mess.

 

[a_majoor]

"I SAY AGAIN"

Political parties exist because people with similar views join forces and resources to achieve their goals. This has been in play since ancient Athens, and even if the Liberal, MDP, Conservative and Marxist parties were all disbanded tomorrow, the next day new parties, groupings  or associations would arise.

Running as an independent "may" allow you to be elected, but then you might have some difficulties achieving your goals in parliament, since you, yourself will have to single handedly convince a majority of other sitting member to support you or your bill. (Of course, you will also be getting endless pitches to support someone else's bill as well.) BTW while you are doing all this, your constituents expect your attention, there are lots of committees you need to be on to shepard your bills through parliament, and you might even want to spend a bit of time preparing to be re-elected. Given all that, don't you think having a few friends and partners would help you achieve your goals more efficiently?

No, the problem isn't parties per se, rather it is the combination of personal gain taking precedence over the needs of the Demos, and the sheer inability or apathy of the Canadian public to band together and take effective action against those people who are abusing the system. Our system is rather weak too, BTW, so separating powers through a series of checks and balances (where have we heard that before?) should also be on the agenda.

Run, run hard, say what has to be said. I do hope you get elected, but I suspect you will find it an exercise in frustration if you attempt to work outside the party system. Nevertheless, good luck and Godspeed. If you need help in your campaign, PM me.

 

[Wayne Coady]

"I SAY AGAIN"

Political parties exist because people with similar views join forces and resources to achieve their goals.

 

Now who wouldn't understand that !
The problem Mr. a_majoor, is people like yourself choose to point out the problems of "a" party that displeases you and of course then we have your oppsites, they point out the faults of your favorite party. It is people such as you who are stating and pointing out the pitfalls of the party system and people such as myself are saying well since all parties are crooks and liars, then do not support them.

Not all levels of "government" are set up on the party system, let me educate you, right here in Canada the 'Government" of the North West Territories is based on , now get this independent candidates and free of party corruption   So lets climb out of the dark ages and move forward into the future please. Not all countries are set up to "govern" from the top down , there are other that work from the bottom up. Switzerland   is one such country, consensus government.

 

[Infanteer]

There you go Arthur, you've been educated....

 

[jmacleod]

I would like to see someone try and dismantle the Liberal Party of Canada - pardon me for
laughing. Liberal strategists do not get involved in academic arguements, naval gazing or
reflections on perfect governments, (whatever that is). They will focus on the logistics of
a Federal election and a strategy to win it. Period. Liberal Party of Canada will easily win the
next Federal election - people like Layton have seen to that, when the Socialists betrayed
the "opposition". Personally, I admire Harper, but he cannot survive the Liberal media, who
for their own reasons, support the "natural ruling party". Liberal immigration policy focused
on Ontario over the past decades, has provided a voting pool of people who will vote Liberal
-just look at the polls, starting in Toronto, also the Party has played to the homosexual community
which votes as a block (and has strong media ties). Voter apathy too, plays a major role in
election strategies, that is why the timing of a Federal election is critical - have an election in
Canada on 15 February, say, and most people will not get out to vote. Some of the posts on
this site are highly emotional - emotion does not play a part in Liberal election strategies. MacLeod

 

[Edward Campbell]

I would like to see someone try and dismantle the Liberal Party of Canada - pardon me for
laughing. Liberal strategists do not get involved in academic arguements, naval gazing or
reflections on perfect governments, (whatever that is). They will focus on the logistics of
a Federal election and a strategy to win it. Period. Liberal Party of Canada will easily win the
next Federal election - people like Layton have seen to that, when the Socialists betrayed
the "opposition". Personally, I admire Harper, but he cannot survive the Liberal media, who
for their own reasons, support the "natural ruling party". Liberal immigration policy focused
on Ontario over the past decades, has provided a voting pool of people who will vote Liberal
-just look at the polls, starting in Toronto, also the Party has played to the homosexual community
which votes as a block (and has strong media ties). Voter apathy too, plays a major role in
election strategies, that is why the timing of a Federal election is critical - have an election in
Canada on 15 February, say, and most people will not get out to vote. Some of the posts on
this site are highly emotional - emotion does not play a part in Liberal election strategies. MacLeod

I think Mr. MacLeod is spot on target.  I agree with his explanation of why and how the Liberal Party of Canada is in and does business.  Its product is power and its strength is in the commitment of its people, its core of members, to gaining and maintaining power.

A relatively small number of people (probably less than 10,000 Canadians) will decide if Michael Ignatieff can help to secure the Liberal Party of Canada's power base: if he can they will toss out Martin and anoint Ignatieff as leader, if not he goes back to Harvard.

 

[jmacleod]

Edward Campbell is a thoughtful man, and his take on Ignatieff is absolutely correct. Ignatieff will
be nominated in Toronto - he will win the nomination. It will be interesting to observe how
Liberal MPs from Toronto, like  Dr. John Godfrey, a Martin loyalist will react to this. John Godfrey
is the former President of King's College, Halifax NS, and academic and outstanding scholar
-shunted aside by the the Chretien crowd, but a friend of Martin. Yet his academic and human
rights credentials make him a natural supporter of Ignatieff. One thing appears certain however,
Mr. Martin's tenure is finished, and only the most loyal and obtuse Martin supporter is unaware
of this fact of Liberal politics. Another media problem for Mr. Harper in Nova Scotia yesterday,
when he referred to Liberal MP and Fisheries Minister Geoff Regan as "Gerry Regan" - the Honorable
Gerry Regan is the former Premier of Nova Scotia, a Federal Minister (Trudeau era) and the father
of Minister Geoff Regan - Harper's handlers should have known this and briefed Harper, talking in
the heartland of Tory Nova Scotia. MacLeod

 

[Wayne Coady]

would like to see someone try and dismantle all political parties.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Liberal immigration policy focused on Ontario over the past decades, has provided a voting pool of people who will vote Liberal
-just look at the polls, starting in Toronto,

You aren't seriously suggesting that federal immigration policy has been driven by a plot to create a voting bloc are you?

 

[jmacleod]

I am not talking about a "plot" or Federal Immigration Policy - Federal immigration policy was not
a decision by the Liberal Party of Canada, it was a decision by PM Pierre E. Trudeau and his cabinet
of the period, all clearly documented and part of our historic past. But the Liberal Party of Ontario
in particular organized reception committees for immigrants, particularly those from Italy and
Portugal, and assisted them substantially with the logistics of coming to Canada. It was a well
thought out plan, which had it's historical background, for instance in Nova Scotia, where Scots/Irish
immigrants, mostly Roman Catholic were welcomed by the NS Liberal Party, and assisted. Those
were the days (1870's) in Nova Scotia where in certain areas, a Roman Catholic Mass had to be
held in secret. Did most of these people in NS and later Ontario become Liberals? of course. The
immigrants to Ontario for instance, from Ulster (Protestants) became the main driving force of the
Ontario Conservative Party (Orangemen and all that). MacLeod

 

[Edward Campbell]

I regard myself of something of a conservative civil libertarian; I like to think that I am a classical, 19th century liberal â “ someone who thinks John Stuart Mill got it just about right about 150 years ago and that there has not been much, useful, added since.*

I find myself attracted to much of Ignatieff's world-view as I understand it.  (I am especially impressed with the ideas he brought out in his biography of Isaiah Berlin.)  I share his belief in fundamental human rights for all â “ regardless of race, colour, creed and so on.  I also understand his support for prosecuting the war against the Arab, extremist, fundamentalist Islamic movements which declared war on us.

If I like Ignatieff then I am 99.9% certain that a very, very large minority of the Liberal Party of Canada is going to thoroughly detest him if, Big IF, they ever find out what he thinks.  That substantial minority â “ it may even be a majority â “ includes virtually the entire, still large and influential Trudeau wing of the party which has influence amongst both the Martinis and the Chrétienistas.  The Trudeauites remain united in their blissful ignorance of history and economics and in their pursuit of the old, discredited, intellectually vacuous anti-capitalist policies.  They, including John Godfrey, form the core of the knee-jerk anti-American wing of the party.

But we are going to have an election this winter so it is time for the gentlemen to get off the pitch and make room for the players and the Liberal Party of Canada players, as Mr. MacLeod has told us, are undeterred by anything as banal as ideas and intellect.  They learned, back in the '60s and'70s that charisma tops brains, integrity, ideas and ability, all rolled together, every time.  The guessing, I guess, is that Ignatieff has charisma â “ his reputation as a world famous Harvard scholar will satisfy the deep craving of a huge majority of Canadians to have whatever the Americans have.  His ideas can be disguised or submerged into whatever bits of fluff the stenographers in the Canadian media take down, verbatim, fro the Liberal hacks and flacks and then pass on to us as 'news.'  All that, of course, if the Québec Wing of the Liberal Party fails in its bid to retain the tradition of alternating French and English leaders â “ and despite the fact that Paul Martin Sr. entered the government as the Franco-Ontarian minister in King's cabinet, Montrealer Paul Martin Jr. is not French enough to count, no matter what the Manley team says.

It is no walk over for Ignatieff, I think.  Too bad because he might, just might be the guy to rescue a once proud national institution from 40 years of rot and corruption which have made it more akin to the criminal mob than a political party.

----------

* I also think that modern political liberalism is a peculiarly English (not even British) construct which is rooted in the traditional values of several, but not all, North Western European cultures.  It (English liberalism) borrowed heavily, for 1,000 years, from across the North Sea and then, in the 19th and 20th centuries found fertile ground in some European countries.  Most of continental Europe, in my view, remains profoundly illiberal â “ the French and Italians and Spanish raise their clench fists and scream Liberation! but they rarely practice what they preach.  European (mostly French) colonialism is responsible for most of what Fareeed Zakaria described (in Foreign Affairs in 1997 â “ later expanded into a book: The Future of Freedom) as illiberal democracy â “ see:  http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19971101faessay3809-p20/fareed-zakaria/the-rise-of-illiberal-democracy.html ).

Most quasi-democratic states (including, in my opinion, many in Europe, even in the European Union, itself) learned all the wrong socio-economic and political lessons from their colonial masters â “ some, even many mastered some of the forms of democracy, like elections, even free and fair elections, but they failed to grasp the functions: respect for laws, a belief in the supremacy of the rule of law, equality at law rather than (unattainable by humans) economic or social equality â “ which leads, inevitably, to Marxism and social, economic and political failure.  I also believe that there are, in Asia, a few conservative democracies â “ which are possible in the very conservative Asian societies.  I have no problems with liberal or conservative democracies â “ liberal democracies are better for liberal societies, conservative democracies are, probably, better for conservative societies.  Illiberal democracies are neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring and, in so far as they reflect illiberal societies (Eastern Europe? the Balkans? the Middle East? West Asia?) then, perhaps they pose dangers to our values by disguising the real problems.

 

[Acorn]

One wonders, Edward, if you will still be thought of as a thoughtful man after that.

Acorn

 

[Wayne Coady]

Well Edward Campbell :  liberal or conservative democracies seems to be the very problem, they float that word "democracy" around as if we were suppose to believe it were real. This liberal/ conservative bull as cost the taxpayers of Canada much, and as far as this being a "democracy" well maybe if you do not mind being stolen blind by some lawyer turned politician.

I remember what conservative politics under Mulroney done to this country and now here we are still going through what the Liberals Party have done to this country with their ad scam plus much more, the NDP are not free from stealing from the taxpayers either, they have proved that they too have light fingers.

No, I get a kick when someone tries to tie the party system to democracy, when in fact a political party is nothing more than a vehicle, used to deceive and steal from the countries citizens. There is very little difference between a motor cycle gang such as the Hells Angles and a political party. The only difference is political parties have managed to put the very people who are suppose to manage justice in the right places to push their protective legislative laws. From the time of Sir John A MacDonald we the taxpayers have been stolen from and think about it, MacDonald was caught for taking kick backs and they gave him the title "Sir" , something like give the Order of Canada to Jean Crietian or Brian Mulroney.

Honourable is as Honourable does. But no my friend, Liberal / ConServative/ NDP parties are along way from being democratic, from the very day you enter either party , you either do as you are told by the "party" or you hit the road. That sounds like dictatorship politics to me. Unions, Religion and political parties all appeal to the masses, people who cannot think or do for themself and all three have been losing their membership, they are on the decline, because people have been waking up, slowly, but they are starting to think outside the box.

 

[a_majoor]

I will take this education in stride, but my mentor Thucydides pretty much summed it up around 404BC (which is why I know "parties" will continue to exist regardless):

It will be enough for me, however, if these words of mine are judged useful by those who want to understand clearly the events which happened in the past, and which (human nature being what it is) will, at some time or other and in much the same ways, be repeated in the future.