Afghan Medals Process (merged)

[armyvern]

That's not how it was explained in various different sources...

Given:

Would that not mean that the medals were first apportioned by environment, then within each environment by rank and MOC, and then finally by seniority within those ranks?

Put another way, only the most X senior Pte Infantrymen got it, only the most Y senior LS NCIOPs got it, only the most Z senior Capt CELE and so on, and so on...?

I seem to recall seeing many sources saying that the largest group of recipients was (supposed to be) Corporals.

Oh my.

How quickly we forget.

In 03 when we finally got some Ptes back into our trade after the preceeding Decade of Darkness - the year that the medals were 'awarded' --- the CF had a whole heck of a lot more Cpls than it did Ptes ... some of us purple trades waited a whole lot longer than the zero trades to get "PTES" too due to the (finally!!) increase in recruiting post 911 having the bulk of new enrollees headed to those zero trades.

Of course Cpls got more QGJMs medals --- we had relatively few Ptes then.

 

[Occam]

Yes.......And where are those "Corporals" today  --  five to seven years later?

Hopefully not all are still Corporals.  :camo:

Hopefully not.  That's not what I was addressing, though - it was the statement "Since Ptes has fewer than four years service at that time, most went to higher ranking individuals".

To me, that didn't really make a lot of sense, as the seniority of Ptes at the time had no bearing on how many went to higher ranking individuals.  To use simple numbers, if 10 members of a 100 member trade were privates, and there were 5 medals available to Ptes in that trade, then the 5 most senior Ptes got them - that has nothing to do with the number of Cpls that got them.

Anyhow, I think we're getting tunnel vision here. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Yes.......And where are those "Corporals" today  --  five to seven years later?

Actually, I think you may find that a surprising number have retired by now because they were long serving Corporals at the time of the awards.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I enjoyed watching my CO award himself (who had never done a tour anywhere) and the Cadet Corps RSM Canada 125 medals after I'd suggested we give them to soldiers who had just returned from Yugo.

AFAIC you can keep those particular types of medals, with absurd and wishy washy criteria, and melt them down for more ammo...

 

[Pusser]

The really interesting thing about the QGJM was that the original recommendation from the CF was that all serving members who were occupation qualified should receive it.  This was similar to the British approach which was to give it to all serving members who had at least five years in and in contrast to the Australian approach, which was to issue none.  I don't remember what New Zealand did.  Unfortunately, the Prime Minister's Office disagreed and limited the CF to a much smaller number.

Faced with a much smaller number than desired, the CF did everything it could to make it as fair as possible.  There was no merit involved and CF members were not nominated by the Chain of Command (although civilian employees could be, but theirs were from a separate allocation).  Master lists were drawn up of all serving members and  those with the most years of service at each rank level received them.  Seniority in rank was not used to determine the award.  This meant that a newly promoted sergeant with many years of service would receive it before the sergeant who had been promoted years earlier, but who had less overall service.

In addition to the CF, other organizations were given the opportunity to nominate individuals for the QGJM and to set their own criteria.  Some CF members could and did receive medals this way.  For example, a CF member who also volunteered for the Monarchist League of Canada (which did in fact receive an allocation), could receive a QGJM.  Because it's part of the Canadian Honours System, he/she would still wear it on his/her uniform along with any other medals received.

Although I would have preferred it if the CF had been allowed to follow its first recommendation, I have to say I think this medal was handled as fairly as possible and certainly better than previous ones.  Some folks received the 125 medal by writing their MPs and asking for it?  The next question is what will happen for the Diamond Jubilee in 2012 or the sesqui-centennial in 2017?

 

[SeanNewman]

...The next question is what will happen for the Diamond Jubilee in 2012...

Show me the medal!!

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

you are also incorrect about the United States awarding a medal for basic training.

The US has a very different award structure to our own, which includes both medal awards and "ribbon only" recognition.  The Army Service Ribbon is awarded for completing of basic training - it does not have an associated medal.

I remembered something in a random publication about 25 years ago about a USAF medal for excelling in basic.  It was, in fact, a ribbon.

The only basic training medal I could find was the Alabama Guard.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I remembered something in a random publication about 25 years ago about a USAF medal for excelling in basic.  It was, in fact, a ribbon.

The only basic training medal I could find was the Alabama Guard.

And once again some simple research shows that your arguments lack a basis in fact. Please do the research first next time, it will save the rest of us work in disproving your posts based on what you think is right or what you think you remember.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

And once again some simple research shows that your arguments lack a basis in fact. Please do the research first next time, it will save the rest of us work in disproving your posts based on what you think is right or what you think you remember.

You're right ......... but

Every service member on completing basic training receives a ribbon for graduating, possibly a ribbon for course honours (if they duplicate) AND a National Defence Service Medal, as much fruit salad as Canadian RSMs back in the day.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforcejoin/a/afbmtribbon.htm

It is for service in time of national emergency, not training.  I admit it was not the basis of my point.

 

[Journeyman]

You're right ......... but

After "you're right," stop.....just stop.  :nod:

 

[Rifleman62]

Pusser is correct re the criteria. I have the list with the names/units/enrolment date of the longest serving members (10/12 members) of the CF at that time. Unit and CBGs had to verify the computer lists that were sent from NDHQ.

 

[John Nayduk]

At the risk of opening a can of worms but since this topic started out talking about a revamp of the honours we receive for serving Canada, I have a suggestion about the SWASM and the GCS.
Historically, we (Britain) issued campaign stars which were worn before war medals.  Examples of this are the 1914 or 1914/15 Star which were worn before the 1914-1918 War Medal and the Victory Medal.  For World War 2 service, there were 8 campaign stars (with their order of precedence) which are worn before the Defence Medals, Canadian Volunteer Service Medal and the 1939-45 War Medal.
Could we/should we change the order of precedence of the South-West Asia Service medal and the General Campaign Star?  I know that the SWASM was issued to the soldiers, sailors and Air Force personnel who served with the U.S. military during Operation Enduring Freedom.  Could we use the SWASM to recognize service all in South-West Asia regardless of the name of the operation (with the AFGHANISTAN bar for service in the country) and issue a bar for the General Campaign Star that reads “O.E.F.” to recognize service in the U.S. lead campaign during Operation Enduring Freedom?  So if a person was there for the invasion and did another tour with ISAF, they would were a General Campaign Star with the O.E.F. and the ISAF bars and the SWASM with AFGHANISTAN bar.  This would bring us into line with the historical use of campaign stars and war medals.  I know that the South-West Asia Service medal is a “service” medal and not a “war” medal but let’s be honest and call this a war and elevate the SWASM to the status of a war medal.
We have changed the order of precedence and criteria for established honours in the past (the Order of Canada as an example) so it can be done.

 

[SeanNewman]

ARG,

There is a lot of water cooler talk in the CF about that sort of thing, but obviously it's not a democracy.  The general consensus of the rumour mill has all sorts of ideas about what should happen with the GCS / SWASM fiasco, but right from the (Comd CEFCOM) it's coming down that we aren't going to re-invent the past.

If we can make things clearer in the future then that's one thing, but I understood his intent quite clear about not going six years into the past and changing regulations for things that were already given out.

Right or wrong, agree or disagree, that's where it is.

 

[McG]

The general consensus of the rumour mill has all sorts of ideas about what should happen with the GCS / SWASM fiasco, but right from the (Comd CEFCOM) it's coming down that we aren't going to re-invent the past.

While what I have seen also suggests we will not "re-invent the past" on the SWASM/GCS divide, there may be some administrative re-vision within the GCS itself (those campaign specific ribbons being retroactively introduced).  This would mostly effect guys with a GCS for ALLIED FORCE (Kosovo air campaign) or Iraq tours attached to the US.

 

[Dirty Patricia]

DND News Release:

Changes to Recognition for Overseas Service
NR - 10.015 - March 17, 2010

OTTAWA – The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, today announced changes to the South-West Asia Service Medal (SWASM), the General Campaign Star (GCS) and the General Service Medal (GSM). These changes were introduced following a major review of all recognition provided for overseas service in order to simplify and standardize overseas recognition for Canadian Forces (CF) personnel. The creation of a formal device to recognize those who serve multiple rotations in missions eligible for the SWASM, the GCS and the GSM was key in this review.

“We are grateful to all of our Canadian Forces personnel for their bravery and dedication,” said Minister MacKay. “The changes announced today allow the Government of Canada to acknowledge the individual experience of men and women who deploy on operations with the recognition they so richly deserve.”

Rotation bars have been created to mark multiple rotations in missions eligible for the three medals. Personnel will earn a rotation bar emblazoned with a maple leaf for each period of 180 days of eligible service accumulated after the initial qualifying period of 30 days. With the addition of rotation bars, mission bars will no longer be worn on the GCS and GSM. Instead, the medals will be displayed on ribbons that indicate the theatre or service for which the medal was awarded. This ensures that all service in a defined theatre of operations is accorded the same recognition, regardless of the mission.

Additional changes include an adjustment in the criteria to receive the GSM for a support function, from 90 to 30 days, and the establishment of three distinct ribbons for the GCS and GSM.  The South-West Asia ribbon, the Allied Force ribbon to replace the Allied Force bar and the Expedition ribbon to recognize smaller operations conducted in the presence of an armed enemy. 

The General Campaign Star is awarded to CF personnel, and members of allied forces working with the CF, who deploy into a defined theatre of operations to take part in operations in the presence of an armed enemy.

The General Service Medal is awarded to CF personnel, members of allied forces and Canadian citizens other than CF personnel serving with the CF who deploy outside of Canada - but not necessarily into a theatre of operations - to provide direct support to operations in the presence of an armed enemy.

The South-West Asia Service Medal recognizes the participation of CF personnel deployed or in direct support of the operations against terrorism in South-West Asia. Eligibility for the SWASM ends as of 31 July 2009 and all service in theatre from 1 August 2009 onwards is eligible for either the General Campaign Star or General Service Medal with South-West Asia ribbon.

 

[PMedMoe]

Judging from the phrase "mission bars will no longer be worn on the GCS and GSM", I'm guessing there will not be a grandfather clause for those already wearing it.

I wonder if the medals need to be remounted when the bar is removed and, if so, is the CF paying for it?

 

[vonGarvin]

Here is the link:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00&id=3302

 

[PuckChaser]

I wonder if the medals need to be remounted when the bar is removed and, if so, is the CF paying for it?

If the medal was mounted properly, it should have wire holding the bar on requiring a remount to make it look proper without holes. I see this as being "awarded" a new medal, which you're entitled to reimbursement. Money's tight, so nobody probably even thought about remounting.

 

[armyvern]

Judging from the phrase "mission bars will no longer be worn on the GCS and GSM", I'm guessing there will not be a grandfather clause for those already wearing it.

I wonder if the medals need to be remounted when the bar is removed and, if so, is the CF paying for it?

Yes; the CF would pay for it.

Each time that you are awarded a medal, a numeral, or a bar (IE: not 'just' a new medal) that you had not previously been entitled to --- the medals are required to be remounted. You are entitled to costs up to $8.00 per medal, bar, and numeral.

A change in the regulations regarding such wear (as we are now seeing) would deem that the remounting is necessary in order to comply with regs and will thus have to reimburseable.

You will either require to have your medals remounted to add the new numeral or to remove the bar which would be deemed 'unauthorized'.

The entitlement to reimbursement (of 8 bucks per) is applicable to each medal that will have to be remounted to comply --- ie: your whole rack.

IE: A pers wearing a CD with bar, a SWASM with bar and a GCS with bar would be entitled to:

(If more than one tour in Afg): 8 X 6 = 48 bucks (3 X medals, 2 X bars, 1 X numeral);

(If only one tour in Afg): 8 X 5 = 40 bucks (3 X medals, 2 X bars, 0 numerals) for reimbursement.

 

[MikeL]

The South-West Asia Service Medal recognizes the participation of CF personnel deployed or in direct support of the operations against terrorism in South-West Asia.

Aren't all CF pers deployed to Kandahar part of the operations agains terrorism in South West Asia?  And to clarify, the last Kandahar roto to get the SWASM was TF 1-06 and I think the Navy gets it now or am I mistaken?