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Now THATS an interesting twist........
Afghan man faces death penalty for converting to Christianity
- Thread starter MC
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while they aren't against people who aren't muslim (they're best friends are non christians) they do not want to encourage missionaries trying to convert other muslims to another faith.... and how do you do that..... you get a grip on the population.....
would venture to say that all of Afghanistan is aware of this trial.
would hope and pray that, at the last minute, islam will be lenient and this convert to hethanism will be expulsed from the country.....
would venture to say that all of Afghanistan is aware of this trial.
would hope and pray that, at the last minute, islam will be lenient and this convert to hethanism will be expulsed from the country.....
Brad Sallows
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>(In small villages they pray up to 5 times a day, this religion is all they have)
It's not a question of boredom. They're supposed to pray five times a day, facing Mecca no less.
Islam is a religion of not-one-step-back. Once it sets foot in a soul or a land, it's supposed to remain there, and there are those who consider themselves bound to honour the spirit of that call. That should give people a clue, but it doesn't. If the tide never recedes but occasionally rises, where is that eventually going to leave you?
It's not a question of boredom. They're supposed to pray five times a day, facing Mecca no less.
Islam is a religion of not-one-step-back. Once it sets foot in a soul or a land, it's supposed to remain there, and there are those who consider themselves bound to honour the spirit of that call. That should give people a clue, but it doesn't. If the tide never recedes but occasionally rises, where is that eventually going to leave you?
Michael Dorosh
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Brad Sallows said:
High...and dry...
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If this act flies in the face of what we are hoping to achieve in Afghanistan, will we see NATO Forces withdraw? Not likely. Although we are hoping to bring Afghanistan out of the Dark Ages and bring Democracy to their land, we are also striving to protect ourselves from the Taliban and al Qaeda Terrorist threat. Pulling out of Afghanistan would allow the Terrorist Threat to expand and grow into an even larger problem. Bringing Afghanistan into the modern world is a secondary goal, not the primary goal of our operations there.
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Anyone read about the Christian on trial in Kabul for not reverting back to Islam. The lawyers and judge say he should hang. The Prime Minister should stop this immediately by threatening to pull the troops out. If we dont we're just bodyguards for the new taliban.
http://news.google.ca/news?q=christian+afghanistan+&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr
http://news.google.ca/news?q=christian+afghanistan+&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr
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Sandeep... obviously we're aware... did you read this thread?
with respect to your commentary -
are you saying that we are dictating how their religion works?
are you saying that we should blackmail the Afghan gov't?
are you saying that we included a morality standard before we entered into this mission to "aid" Afghanistan?
are you suggesting that we are occupation troops and this is the American Raj?
Sharia law has not prevented the US from dealing with Saudi Arabia - why should Afghanistan bve treated any differently?
While the application of Ilsamic religious (throwback) dogma might gall westerners, it isn't for us to judge (right or wrong). If NATO pulled out of Afghanistan over this - then the Talib & AQ win.... if we dictate ... then we've proven to the entire Middle East that the Talib & AQ were right....
just a couple of thoughts for you to dwell on.
with respect to your commentary -
are you saying that we are dictating how their religion works?
are you saying that we should blackmail the Afghan gov't?
are you saying that we included a morality standard before we entered into this mission to "aid" Afghanistan?
are you suggesting that we are occupation troops and this is the American Raj?
Sharia law has not prevented the US from dealing with Saudi Arabia - why should Afghanistan bve treated any differently?
While the application of Ilsamic religious (throwback) dogma might gall westerners, it isn't for us to judge (right or wrong). If NATO pulled out of Afghanistan over this - then the Talib & AQ win.... if we dictate ... then we've proven to the entire Middle East that the Talib & AQ were right....
just a couple of thoughts for you to dwell on.
M
monika
Guest
sandeep_8g said:
I'm no military genius but you cannot pull out 1000s for the life of one. By doing so we condone the action that we claim to despise.
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Maybe we should add a few more thousand, or 10's of thousands. Not one step back and all that.
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Im the one who started this thread but was bumped back. What do you think we should do?
Not say anything. What about the afghan boy who had cancer on his face. The Christian ambulance driver got his Church to raise funds for him.
The man is not in some remote village, he's in Kabul.
Like i said, we're just the new talibans bodyguards if we dont stop them.
Not say anything. What about the afghan boy who had cancer on his face. The Christian ambulance driver got his Church to raise funds for him.
The man is not in some remote village, he's in Kabul.
Like i said, we're just the new talibans bodyguards if we dont stop them.
Trinity
Army.ca Veteran
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sandeep_8g said:
First.. stop saying that like its a punchline. Thats a very serious accusation
and its not true. We are not responsible for the internal affairs of that country.
Second. An attack on ONE religion, is an attack on ALL religions. We may not
agree with what they are doing, but interfering with them and passing judgement
then gives them free reign to do the same onto us.
Also its not like Christians in other parts of the world haven't been involved in riots and killing Muslims lately, or does
that not bother you. (Bruce posted the link in another thread.. I'm too tired to find it)
Sandeep... who ever you are.. Start looking at the global picture.
btw.. I'm probably the most hardcore religious person here!!! if you know what R61 means!
M
monika
Guest
sandeep_8g said:
How do we stop them? It's not like we can organise a mass boycott of Afghani goods because, well, we don't buy anything from them that could be damaged by said boycott(aside from the illegal heroin trade).
We cannot take over their government and judicial systems because it is theirs, not ours to operate.
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This poses a strategic problem.
Islam does, in so far as I understand it, prohibit apostasy and the punishments meted out in some Middle Eastern and Central/West Asian societies can, I suppose, appear draconian to those of us accustomed to Euro-American standards.
Our national purpose in Afghanistan is, according to our own government: "… The Government of Canada's main objective is to help Afghanistan to become a stable, democratic and self-sustaining state that never again serves as a terrorist haven." (Cited in: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40707.0.html ).
I have been following the Pew Research Center’s polling of attitudes - http://people-press.org/ - and it seems to me that:
1. Most Muslim people in North Africa, the Middle East and Central/West Asia want democracy. They want to be able to control their own destinies by electing governments which reflect their values. They believe, as did Jefferson et al, that : ”… Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
2. Given a functioning, reasonable fair democracy most Muslim people in many nations in the Islamic Crescent (Morocco to Indonesia) would vote to elect highly conservative, fundamentalist, theocratic governments. They appear, to me, to believe that their religion should be wholly and completely integrated into their daily lives, including into their governments.
I didn’t see us qualify our aim as being to ”… help Afghanistan to become a stable, liberal, secular democratic and self-sustaining state…” that embraces Canadian social values.
Maybe the Canadian aim is wrong.
It is my belief that George W Bush, Paul Martin and Stephen Harper are wrong (and Tony Blair, John Howard and all the others, too). I think that sending soldiers to fight and die (and sending billions of hard earned dollars) to bring democracy to the region is a fool’s errand.
We need to:
• Strike down (however temporarily) the (Arab, extremist, fundamentalist, Islamic) movements which have declared war on us. This involves, sadly, killing a whole bunch of (mostly) men in the region – pour discourager les autres, if nothing else; and, meanwhile
• Ferment intra-communal strife amongst the Muslims throughout the entire Islamic Crescent so that the entire region might treat itself to a religious reformation which is, I believe an essential precursor to an enlightenment which is another essential precursor, this time to the establishment of the sort of democracy most Canadians imagine when they hear that word.
I think a reformation will require a generation and several bloody regional wars – in which we (the liberal democratic West) ought not to participate. I think an Arab/Islamic enlightenment will require another generation. In other words I think we ought to hope for a society in which capital punishment will not be the proper way to deal with apostasy in about 2075.
Islam does, in so far as I understand it, prohibit apostasy and the punishments meted out in some Middle Eastern and Central/West Asian societies can, I suppose, appear draconian to those of us accustomed to Euro-American standards.
Our national purpose in Afghanistan is, according to our own government: "… The Government of Canada's main objective is to help Afghanistan to become a stable, democratic and self-sustaining state that never again serves as a terrorist haven." (Cited in: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40707.0.html ).
I have been following the Pew Research Center’s polling of attitudes - http://people-press.org/ - and it seems to me that:
1. Most Muslim people in North Africa, the Middle East and Central/West Asia want democracy. They want to be able to control their own destinies by electing governments which reflect their values. They believe, as did Jefferson et al, that : ”… Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
2. Given a functioning, reasonable fair democracy most Muslim people in many nations in the Islamic Crescent (Morocco to Indonesia) would vote to elect highly conservative, fundamentalist, theocratic governments. They appear, to me, to believe that their religion should be wholly and completely integrated into their daily lives, including into their governments.
I didn’t see us qualify our aim as being to ”… help Afghanistan to become a stable, liberal, secular democratic and self-sustaining state…” that embraces Canadian social values.
Maybe the Canadian aim is wrong.
It is my belief that George W Bush, Paul Martin and Stephen Harper are wrong (and Tony Blair, John Howard and all the others, too). I think that sending soldiers to fight and die (and sending billions of hard earned dollars) to bring democracy to the region is a fool’s errand.
We need to:
• Strike down (however temporarily) the (Arab, extremist, fundamentalist, Islamic) movements which have declared war on us. This involves, sadly, killing a whole bunch of (mostly) men in the region – pour discourager les autres, if nothing else; and, meanwhile
• Ferment intra-communal strife amongst the Muslims throughout the entire Islamic Crescent so that the entire region might treat itself to a religious reformation which is, I believe an essential precursor to an enlightenment which is another essential precursor, this time to the establishment of the sort of democracy most Canadians imagine when they hear that word.
I think a reformation will require a generation and several bloody regional wars – in which we (the liberal democratic West) ought not to participate. I think an Arab/Islamic enlightenment will require another generation. In other words I think we ought to hope for a society in which capital punishment will not be the proper way to deal with apostasy in about 2075.
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[Edward, you have suggested,
Maybe the Canadian aim is wrong.
It is my belief that George W Bush, Paul Martin and Stephen Harper are wrong (and Tony Blair, John Howard and all the others, too). I think that sending soldiers to fight and die (and sending billions of hard earned dollars) to bring democracy to the region is a fool’s errand.
We need to:
• Strike down (however temporarily) the (Arab, extremist, fundamentalist, Islamic) movements which have declared war on us. This involves, sadly, killing a whole bunch of (mostly) men in the region – pour discourager les autres, if nothing else; and, meanwhile
• Ferment intra-communal strife amongst the Muslims throughout the entire Islamic Crescent so that the entire region might treat itself to a religious reformation which is, I believe an essential precursor to an enlightenment which is another essential precursor, this time to the establishment of the sort of democracy most Canadians imagine when they hear that word.
I think a reformation will require a generation and several bloody regional wars – in which we (the liberal democratic West) ought not to participate. I think an Arab/Islamic enlightenment will require another generation. In other words I think we ought to hope for a society in which capital punishment will not be the proper way to deal with apostasy in about 2075.
[/quote]
I quite agree with you, however; how can the US, Great Britian, Canada and other well intentioned Western Democratic countries effectively strike down the extremists if we can not establish a small footprint in the Islamic world for understanding, communications, a Base of operations for civilian foreign affairs and military organizations ? Surely the people of Afghanistan, and their current government, will not want us there if we do not have something of perceived value to offer such as free democratic values.
Maybe the Canadian aim is wrong.
It is my belief that George W Bush, Paul Martin and Stephen Harper are wrong (and Tony Blair, John Howard and all the others, too). I think that sending soldiers to fight and die (and sending billions of hard earned dollars) to bring democracy to the region is a fool’s errand.
We need to:
• Strike down (however temporarily) the (Arab, extremist, fundamentalist, Islamic) movements which have declared war on us. This involves, sadly, killing a whole bunch of (mostly) men in the region – pour discourager les autres, if nothing else; and, meanwhile
• Ferment intra-communal strife amongst the Muslims throughout the entire Islamic Crescent so that the entire region might treat itself to a religious reformation which is, I believe an essential precursor to an enlightenment which is another essential precursor, this time to the establishment of the sort of democracy most Canadians imagine when they hear that word.
I think a reformation will require a generation and several bloody regional wars – in which we (the liberal democratic West) ought not to participate. I think an Arab/Islamic enlightenment will require another generation. In other words I think we ought to hope for a society in which capital punishment will not be the proper way to deal with apostasy in about 2075.
[/quote]
I quite agree with you, however; how can the US, Great Britian, Canada and other well intentioned Western Democratic countries effectively strike down the extremists if we can not establish a small footprint in the Islamic world for understanding, communications, a Base of operations for civilian foreign affairs and military organizations ? Surely the people of Afghanistan, and their current government, will not want us there if we do not have something of perceived value to offer such as free democratic values.
M
monika
Guest
Edward Campbell said:
It will take time, definitely, but I think over time it will be achieved. While it's like comparing apples and oranges, the Velvet Revolution and Fall of the Iron Curtain did not happen overnight. Eventually it was people seeing what their lives could be like under a different system that made the difference. Many of those nations have not embraced "Western" ideology for everything and I don't expect them to.
My parents lived in a Muslim nation(Iraq, early 60s) and also in a Communist nation(CSSR, WWII to early 60s) so I guess I've been raised not to view everything as us vs. them, or concrete absolutes.
Right now we need some military muscle to get the job done but at some point the average Afghani will clue in that there is a better way to live.
Brad Sallows
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Actually, it is for us to judge, both ourselves and others. The question is, as always, what if anything do we do about the shortcomings we detect?
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TMM said:
I totally agree that it will take time and it will be achieved. I just got off the phone with my sister who is in Nairobi Kenya with a group educating academics and cultural differences. She has a lot of interesting stories and said it was like going back 200 years once you see how they live. You are either extremely wealthy or extremely poor. no moderate or middle class. She is a pretty big soccer player and she brought some soccer balls over for her students who beg her to stay when she has to leave, because their local teachers beat them with sticks. I asked if it was hard for her not to intervene but apparently that's a big no no or you're as good as dead. That's all they are use to. She told me that religion is huge and everyone knows where they come from. The first question asked by a young child was "what religion are you?" You're either Protestant or Catholic. She said she felt like the kid once one of the students told her to make sure she prays before class. ;D
All some people have is religion and if that's all you have to fall back on, it's damn hard for someone else to take it away. The best thing we can do is educate-at the same time protect the ones that want to learn and get rid of the ones that resist. Something like the 3 block war I believe
I hold our soldiers in Afghanistan in the highest regards, and I am not questioning why they are in Afghanistan. But the story of Abdul Rahman, the man who converted to Christianity from Islam and is now facing the death penalty by the very 'democratic' government we are trying to aid (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/international/asia/23convert.html) should make one wonder what it is we are defending. I can't imagine anything that would try our soldiers morale than defending a 'democracy' where it is an offence to change ones religion, and the punishment is death - such barbarism is one reason we threw out the Taliban! Is this something Canadians should risk our lives and limb for! We may be over there for some good reasons, but this should definately be something to question.
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The religious culture in Afghanistan I think frowns heavily on people doing that, and although I do not support what they do, I understand that what we believe to be important, may not be in another Country.
I think there may be some other issues going on here that we may not be aware of. (he may have severely offended some part of the Islamic faith - other than changing religion) which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) could be a very bad crime.
Gnplummer
I think there may be some other issues going on here that we may not be aware of. (he may have severely offended some part of the Islamic faith - other than changing religion) which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) could be a very bad crime.
Gnplummer
