Afghan Facts and Fiction?

[vonGarvin]

Majstorovic:
For starters, an Afghani is a unit of currency used in Afghanistan.
An Afghan is a person from Afghanistan.  Just thought I'd throw that out there, see where it lands.

 

[George Wallace]

Where or where to start?

Did you sleep through the class of real life?  Things taught from a book don't always apply in practice. Oh, the Army tells me it is wrong to do X, well I guess X must never happen, since it is wrong for X to happen.

As I previously posted, do your research.  You are posting lunatic rants.  You have no concept of what it is like to serve, if that statement is your honest opinion.

Afghanis ARE living in the same crap conditions prior to the invasion.  Sure, a few schools get built here and there, and there are token, albeit massively corrupt, elections that take place, but more or less the same.  Just that the awful leaders from before have been replaced with awful leaders that are more friendly to NATO.

You have to stop and get rid you your "Mcdonald's Generation Thoughts" and become a little more analitical of what you read.  How long did it take for us to bring a stable economy and peace to Europe after WW II?  And they had similar cultural and religious believes as we do.  When did Canada finally withdraw all its troops from Europe?  So you figure we can bring peace and joy to the Afghan people (NOT THEIR MONEY or AFGHANIS) who have a totally different culture and religion to ours, in a matter of a couple of years?  Do you seriously believe that we could build hundreds of Schools and other parts of infrastructure in those few years?  Do you have some sort of majicwand with which this can be done?

I'm not sure who this Taliban Jack that you are referring to is,

TROLL!

but what will make the mission fail is the way success has been defined.  It has been defined in a very non-orthodox way such that it guarantees ongoing battle operations. Unless you wipe everyone in the country out, resistance to foreign occupation will never be stamped out.  Afghani cultural evolution is still lagging behind and it can't be brought up to speed overnight.  Democracy didn't originate in Europe or the West as a result of a foreign imposition of political terms, it emerged after a slow but steady internal social development.  The same might eventually happen there, but it's not likely. Democracy isn't the default condition.  Most countries in the world are not democracies.  If you want to go convert each country into one, you would be fighting for the next trillion years.
I'll give you examlples of what is being done that is counter-productive: 
The fact that people there see the hypocrisy of trumpeting democracy and looking at their lives and seeing the same tribal allegiances, corruption and oppression that still rules their life.

RUBISH!

Building schools, hospitals, training a professional army and police is not counter-productive in theory, but in practice, what will that army and police do when Canada is gone?  Will they forsake their traditional loyalties and beliefs overnight? Hells no.

The idea is to give them the infrastructure and training to be self-sufficient and able to run their own nation.  Stability is what this is all about.

 

[Teflon]

Majstorovic

First off I know it's not "a conspiracy where I am the only one with opinions that run contrary to the official government line" since if you where the only one, it couldn't be a conspiracy. A conspiracy of one not being by definition possible. And yes I am well aware that there are many, many people who don't think the government "know its butt from its elbow when it comes to certain  things" and from my view the number of those people seem to be strangly close to the number of people who don't know their butt from elbow when it comes to many  things.

as to

corrupt governments. How absurd and unthinkable. Honestly, who could believe that? Everyone is so honest and well-meaning.

YUP They are out there for sure as well as some good ones as well and about honest and well meaning people, is it so hard for you to accept that some of them are out there and here  involved in Afghanistan as well?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hey lad,

Nobody cares who you want to vote for, that's your own thing.

since that is what this thread WAS about methinks you are even stupider than I originaly gave you credit for,....I won't make that mistake again.



Has been split into another topic now.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Yeah, so what if Sudan is a sovereign nation? Afghanistan was a sovereign nation, and I don't remember anyone caring what its opinion was regarding if it wanted to be invaded.  The UN doesn't need permission to operate in a country if that country violates human rights of its own citizens.

With respect to your comment, there is a big difference between the Sudan and Afghanistan in terms of international intervention.  Operation ENDURING FREEDOM and the subsequent multi-national political agreements and alliances came about as a result of the attacks of 11 September 2001.  Al-Queda had become intertwined with the ruling Taliban government of Afghanistan.  A similar casus belli does not exist with Dharfur.

T2B

p.s. For the record regarding the thread title, how I vote or affiliate is a private matter and I make no comment on the various parties.

 

[George Wallace]

I'm not saying force can't work in Afghanistan.  What I am saying is it can't work if it isn't accompanied by honest political effort to

And it isn't?  That is news to most of us.

Yeah, so what if Sudan is a sovereign nation? Afghanistan was a sovereign nation, and I don't remember anyone caring what its opinion was regarding if it wanted to be invaded.  The UN doesn't need permission to operate in a country if that country violates human rights of its own citizens.

Ignorance is bliss.  You have "Selective Hearing" and "Blinders" if you haven't read all that in the MSN that you have used to quote and support your arguments.  This makes you a liar and a Troll.

You haven't used any unbiased analytical processes in coming to the conclusions you have.  You are blindly following sound bites of the extreme Left and Fifth Columnists.

 

[George Wallace]

Don't worry Bruce..........This Topic is now called "Afghan Facts and Fiction?"

 

[BF1]

Afghanis ARE living in the same crap conditions prior to the invasion. 

First, Afghani is not a person, it is a currency. If you must make comments about Afghanistan at least try to have an understanding of the difference between an Afghan (a person of Afghan nationality) and an Afghani (a currency used in Afghanistan).
Second, not all Afghans  are living in the same "crap conditions" since we arrived.  During my tour in Kabul I saw young ladies wearing jeans, teenage boys cruising downtown with music blasting from their Toyota vans, and kids flying kites. Try doing that under Taliban rule.

 

[GAP]

. op:

 

[OldSolduer]

Well this is entertaining to say the least!! :rofl: op:

 

[Reccesoldier]

I'm not saying force can't work in Afghanistan.  What I am saying is it can't work if it isn't accompanied by honest political effort to

Stop drinking the coolaid and getting your news from Moveon.org.  What do you think Glyn Berry was doing in Afghanistan planning tea parties?

Yeah, so what if Sudan is a sovereign nation? Afghanistan was a sovereign nation, and I don't remember anyone caring what its opinion was regarding if it wanted to be invaded.  The UN doesn't need permission to operate in a country if that country violates human rights of its own citizens.

 

As others have already pointed out the cause is missing.  And if you think dead people are enough to spur action in the UN take a gander at their stellar response to Somalia, Rwanda, Bosnia et al.

Where did I insist that pacifism was necessary on any mission?  Combat is essential and inevitable in any operation in a hostile zone. That's not the problem. It's what other initiatives are pushed along with the force.

 

So I'll ask again what is it about Darfur that makes the waste of Blood and treasure worth it and Afghanistan not?  UN involvement?  But Afghanistan is a UN sanctioned NATO mission.  Mandated by the security council and everything.  Come on use your brain...  What is the difference?

Nobody cares who you want to vote for, that's your own thing.

 

That was the name of the topic sunshine.

But where are you getting this idea that a left-leaning party in power would bring about the apocalypse.  Take a look at countries that do have some sort of social democracy.  Have they enslaved the brilliant and descended into a cesspool of mediocrity?

 

Sure, lets compare capitalistic countries and socialist ones.  Lets compare human rights, because lets face it all other things are secondary to a persons fundamental rights.  You take Cuba, I'll take Canada, or do you want Zimbabwe and I'll take Botswana.  How about China and the USA.

Communism has about as much to do with socialism as Fascism has to do with conservatism.

 

Bullshit.  Communism has everything to do with socialism.  They are symbiotic philosophies. 

By the way, capitalism isn't predicated on the thinking of "All men should have so much." It is based on the pursuit of individual self interest.

 

Picking fly shit out of pepper now?  Okay, how about "all men should be allowed to have so much"  Not that it matters, the quotation is very clear in its intent and only a pedantic troll would pick that particular nit.

It is theorized that as a result of this, the collective good of society is unintentionally brought about.
In theory it works fine, just like in theory Communism works fine. 
In reality both have serious problems.

Screw theory, you show me a successful socialist nation and I'll show you 10 capitalist ones.

Ooh, and while you're digging that hole care to tell me just exactly what is "fine" about Communism?

 

[George Wallace]

Loved the way that she overlooks the results of Bob Rae's tenure as Premier of Ontario.  Very selective hearing on her.

 

[RangerRay]

Yeah, so what if Sudan is a sovereign nation? Afghanistan was a sovereign nation, and I don't remember anyone caring what its opinion was regarding if it wanted to be invaded.  The UN doesn't need permission to operate in a country if that country violates human rights of its own citizens.

Ummm...last I heard, our mission is mandated by the UN and NATO was INVITED by the sovereign government of Afghanistan.  We have NOT been invited to Sudan, if we were to invite ourselves, as you suggest, it would be a bloodbath the likes of which would make Iraq look like a picnic.

Loved the way that she overlooks the results of Bob Rae's tenure as Premier of Ontario.  Very selective hearing on her.

And the results of Mike Harcourt/Glen Clark here in British Columbia...

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

An older post by me that might prove helpful

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/50522/post-462640.html#msg462640

And, on the so-called "Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline", I'll offer this from the US DoE:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caspgase.html

In July 1997, Turkmenistan signed a memorandum of understanding with Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Uzbekistan to build a Central Asia Gas pipeline to carry 0.7 Tcf of natural gas per year via Afghanistan to Pakistan (and possibly on to India). In October 1997, Unocal set up the Central Asian Gas Pipeline (Centgas) consortium to build the pipeline, which would run 900 miles from the Turkmen natural gas deposit at Dauletabad through Kandahar, Afghanistan, and terminate in the Pakistani city of Multan. The pipeline was estimated to cost $2 billion.

However, in June 1998, Russian natural gas giant Gazprom bowed out of the international consortium formed to build the pipeline, and in early August 1998, Unocal announced that Centgas had not secured the financing necessary to begin the work. On August 22, 1998, Unocal suspended construction plans for the pipeline due to the continuing civil war in Afghanistan and the U.S. missile attacks on suspected terrorist training camps. In April 1999, Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan agreed to reactivate the Centgas project, and to ask the Centgas consortium, now led by Saudi Arabia's Delta Oil, to proceed, but continuing fighting in Afghanistan, as well as sanctions imposed by the U.S. and the United Nations on Afghanistan, kept the project on hold.

Until recently, the pipeline was considered effectively dead, but with a fragile peace in Afghanistan established and the Taliban removed from power, the idea of a trans-Afghan pipeline has been revived. Turkmen President Saparmurat Niyazov and Afghan leader Hamid Karzai have expressed their support for the pipeline, and Uzbek President Islam Karimov is also on record advocating the pipeline. In May 2002, Karzai, Niyazov, and Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf held trilateral talks on the pipeline proposal.

Since the Taliban government in Afghanistan was ousted in December 2001 as part of the U.S.-led war on terrorism, this pipeline option has gained some support, but continuing instability in the region may deter potential investors. U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Elizabeth Jones, during a visit to Ashgabat in January 2002, stated that the United States would support private companies that chose to undertake trans-Afghanistan pipeline projects if they were considered to be beneficial and commercially viable.

However, continuing tensions between India and Pakistan make cooperation on a natural gas pipeline highly unlikely for the time being. Although the trans-Afghanistan pipeline could still be built to terminate in Pakistan rather than India, the southeast pipeline option for Caspian natural gas exports remains a distant possibility.

The Asian Development Bank was to have completed a study on the feasibility of a pipeline (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2608713.stm), but I can't find any record that they've done so (although they have done some minor work on gas development projects within Afghanistan: 

http://www.adb.org/Afghanistan/projects.asp

and

http://www.adb.org/Projects/summaries.asp?ctry=AFG&type=2&query=&browse=1

So, Unocal or the US itself has had nothing - zero - to do with any pipeline activity for over nine years.  The current proposal is for a Pakistani-Indian effort to fund the project, something that's hardly likely to happen...

It's a "pipe" dream...heh...

 

[Greymatters]

Reading Majstorovic's posts is like reading a post by some anti-war protestor - limited sense, unintended hilarious remarks, contradictory logic, defensive innocence...

 

[Teflon]

Reading Majstorovic's posts is like reading a post by some anti-war protestor - limited sense, unintended hilarious remarks, contradictory logic, defensive innocence...

Yes each one is like a compilation of numerous comments for any Afghanistan/military related article in the Globe and Mail online site, same buzz words, same refs and same avoidence of confronting facts

 

[a_majoor]

Communism has about as much to do with socialism as Fascism has to do with conservatism.

Both Communism and Fascism are subsets of the political philosophy of Socialism (and there are lots of threads right here in Canadian Politics about these very topics)

Politics with more dimensions  
"Flavours of Democracy"
Euston Manifesto
Why Socialism can never die
Jon Rawls and Theories of Distributive Justice
Deconstructing "Progressive " thought
Putting the Socialism Back Into National Socialism
Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread

Incidentally, there are almost as many threads about the Afghanistan mission in Canadian Politics as well. You could also read up on some issues on Ruxted.ca for another POV.

 

[JaneBella]

Operation ENDURING FREEDOM and the subsequent multi-national political agreements and alliances came about as a result of the attacks of 11 September 2001.

Well in reality the current occupation of Afghanistan has nothing to do with 9/11.
The United States had been planning an invasion and occupation of Afghanistan 3 years prior to 9/11

Ummm...last I heard, our mission is mandated by the UN and NATO was INVITED by the sovereign government of Afghanistan.

So what sovereign government invited the United States to invade and occupy Afghanistan?
I dont think it was the American supported Taliban government, who just months before 9/11 were given a 43 billion dollar gift from the American government for eradicating the poppy fields.
And seeing as how the current American puppet government of Afghanistan were not even in existence when the United States began the occupation, with Canada joining in soon after, it could not have been them who handed out the invitation.
So who exactly did the inviting?

 

[JesseWZ]

Well in reality the current occupation of Afghanistan has nothing to do with 9/11.
The United States had been planning an invasion and occupation of Afghanistan 3 years prior to 9/11

In most places when you make claims, you have to cite your sources. Conspiracytheory.org doesn't count as a source.

 

[aesop081]

Well in reality the current occupation of Afghanistan has nothing to do with 9/11.

Explain

The United States had been planning an invasion and occupation of Afghanistan 3 years prior to 9/11

Source ?

So what sovereign government invited the United States to invade and occupy Afghanistan?

The US ( and allies) went in there as a response to attack which is permitted under international law. The mission there now is done by NATO on behalf of the UN and at the invitation of the democraticaly ellected Afghan government.