Afghan civilians killed in crossfire; U.S. Marine SOF expelled from A'stan (March 2007)

[GAP]

Afghan civilians caught in crossfire
RAHIM FAIEZ Associated Press
Article Link

JALALABAD, Afghanistan — U.S. Marine Special Forces fleeing a militant ambush opened fire on civilians on a busy highway in eastern Afghanistan, wounded Afghans said.

Officials say up to 16 people were killed and 34 wounded in the violence.

A suicide car bomber hit the American convoy with an explosives-packed minivan, said Noor Agha Zawok, the spokesman for the governor of Nangarhar province.

Militant gunmen then fired from several directions, the U.S. military said. The coalition forces returned fire, the military said.
More on link

 

[Bigmac]

      This incident has sparked outrage among the people of Afghanistan. They were on the streets protesting the violence and deaths of civilians from a previous incident when this occurred. We are now in a very difficult situation in that country as we now have lost the trust of the masses and this recent event will only make matters worse. There will now be many more protests in Afghanistan which will further hamper our mission.  We must bolster efforts to improve relations quickly or I fear this may escalate into civilians choosing the Taliban over democracy.

 

[Bigmac]

NATO air strike hits Afghan house, killing 9 civilians, official says

BY AMIR SHAH

KABUL (AP) - A NATO air strike hit a house during a firefight between western troops and militants, killing nine Afghans who lived there, Afghan officials said Monday.

Militants overnight fired on a NATO base in Kapisa province, just north of Kabul, and when soldiers returned fire, they hit a home, killing five women, three boys and a man, said Sayad Mohammad Dawood Hashimmi, Kapisa deputy governor.

Maj. William Mitchell, a U.S. military spokesman, said officials were looking into the incident. The NATO base in Kapisa is staffed by U.S. forces.

A deputy Interior Ministry spokesman also said nine civilians had been killed. He asked not to be identified because the ministry hadn't yet prepared a statement.

The news of the air strike came one day after wounded Afghans and witnesses said U.S. marines fired on civilian cars and pedestrians after a frenzied escape from a suicide bomb and gunfire attack in eastern Afghanistan. The violence sparked angry anti-U.S. demonstrations by hundreds of Afghan men

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/World/070305/w030503A.html

      This is going to make it damn near impossible to win over hearts and minds. We will now be fighting civilians as well as Taliban. How are the soldiers supposed to distinguish between Taliban and civilians when they all look and dress the same? This is a no win situation for NATO unless we can somehow restore faith with the people.

 

[Eggy]

Months of hard work and sacrifices undone. 

 

[Padraig OCinnead]

Of course no one seems to be upset that it was the Taliban who instigated this by purposely and knowingly exploding a bomb in an area crowded with civilians. No one seems to be blaming those who always make it their point to cause casualties among women and children. Everyone is manufacturing their perpetual outrage at Coalition forces that may have allegedly reacted by spraying fire into the crowd.

Usually when this happens the Coalition forces will immediately launch an inquiry to find out how/why their actions caused needless losses. If any were to be found guilty of misconduct they could be liable to prosecution by the legal system. No one will remember that either.


Slainte,

 

[muskrat89]

http://www.examiner.com/a-635169~Top_general_in_Afghanistan_expels_Marines.html

Top general in Afghanistan expels Marines



Mar 23, 2007 8:52 AM (2 hrs 2 mins ago)
by Rowan Scarborough, The Examiner


WASHINGTON (Map, News) -  The top American general in Afghanistan has expelled a U.S. Marine special operations company for the way the men responded to an ambush March 4, Marine sources said.


Maj. Cliff Gilmore, a spokesman for Marine Special Operations Command, confirmed to The Examiner that the company of 120 Marines is redeploying.

He said the decision followed an ambush on the company's convoy by a vehicle-borne improvised explosive device. A second Marine source said the Marines retaliated and some civilians were killed.

The action brought an abrupt end to what promised to be a historic deployment. The unit sailed in January from Camp Lejuene, N.C., as the first Marine Corps special operations company sent overseas. The Corps joined U.S. Special Operations Command a year ago.

The company is now redeploying to Kuwait after just a few weeks in Afghanistan in what was supposed to be a six-month tour.

A Marine officer assigned to special operations said Lt. Gen. Karl Eikenberry, the top U.S. commander, took the extraordinary step of expelling the unit after he consulted with Afghan Prime Minister Hamid Karzai.

A spokesman for Eikenberry could not be reached today.

Gilmore said, "The unit responded to the ambush and the local population perceptions of that response have damaged the relationship between the local population and the Marine special operations company."

 

[Garett]

Not good, especially after Haditha.  But, I wasn't there so its hard to comment.

 

[tomahawk6]

Army general kicks Marines out of Afghanistan
By Gidget Fuentes - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Mar 23, 2007 17:15:41 EDT

The Corps’ first Marine special operations company has been expelled from Afghanistan after a March 4 enemy ambush on the Marines left eight Afghans dead and another 34 wounded, a U.S. spokesman said Friday.

The decision to remove the MSOC was made by Army Maj. Gen. Frank Kearney, head of U.S. Special Operations Command-Central Command, based on his assessment of the people’s perceptions of what happened, said Army Lt. Col. Louis Leto, a spokesman for SOCCent.

“After the incident, which prompted an ongoing investigation, the general thought or felt it degrades the unit’s ability to conduct counter-insurgency,” Leto said.

The MSOC’s deployment into Afghanistan is significant and historic, as it is the Corps’ first spec-ops unit to deploy into combat since the creation of Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command in early 2006. The command is the Marine Corps’ portion of the joint U.S. Special Operations Command.

But SOCCent is investigating an incident on March 4 in which Afghan witnesses and several wounded civilians told Associated Press freelancers that U.S. forces had fired on civilians in Nangarhar province after a suicide attack on a Marine convoy.

“The investigation is still ongoing,” Leto said. “It’s very thorough.”

The Marines’ status wasn’t readily available.

“The MSOC is in the process of redeploying out of Afghanistan,” Maj. Cliff Gilmore, a MarSOC spokesman, said Friday.

The command isn’t part of the investigation, but “MarSOC is being aware,” Gilmore said. “The investigation at this point is a SOCCent issue.”

But it’s given the command a slight pause.

“What we are primarily looking at, basically, is reviewing our processes and procedures… [and] see what we may be able to do to improve.”

The company deployed with the Camp Lejeune, N.C.-based 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit in January.

 

[Bigmac]

Marine unit ordered to leave Afghanistan
Members accused of killing civilians after bomb attack
By Robert Burns, Associated Press  |  March 24, 2007

WASHINGTON -- Marines accused of shooting and killing civilians after a suicide bombing in Afghanistan are under US investigation and their entire unit has been ordered to leave the country, officials said yesterday.

Army Major General Francis H. Kearney III, head of Special Operations Command Central, ordered the unit of about 120 Marines out of Afghanistan and initiated an investigation into the shootings, said Lieutenant Colonel Lou Leto, spokesman at Kearney's command headquarters in Tampa.

It is highly unusual for any combat unit, either special operations or conventional, to have its mission cut short.

A spokesman for the Marine unit, Major Cliff Gilmore, said it is taking steps to leave Afghanistan, but he declined to provide details on the timing and new location, citing a need for security.

On March 4 in Nangahar province, an explosives-rigged minivan crashed into a convoy of Marines that US officials said also came under fire from gunmen. As many as 10 Afghans were killed and 34 wounded as the convoy made an escape.

Injured Afghans said the Americans fired on civilian cars and pedestrians as they sped away. But US military officials said militant gunmen shot at Marines and may have caused some of the civilian casualties.

President Hamid Karzai condemned the event , which was one among several involving US forces in which civilians were killed and injured.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2007/03/24/marine_unit_ordered_to_leave_afghanistan?mode=PF

    Removing 120 Marines sends a bad message. I hope there is a valid reason not just reacting to world press scrutiny. Perhaps the soldiers felt they were in a major ambush and acted or maybe they panicked. The only ones who truly know are leaving Afghanistan. Hopefully the incident will be investigated properly. The media, unfortunately, will probably eat them alive.

 

[a_majoor]

Of course no one seems to be upset that it was the Taliban who instigated this by purposely and knowingly exploding a bomb in an area crowded with civilians. No one seems to be blaming those who always make it their point to cause casualties among women and children. Everyone is manufacturing their perpetual outrage at Coalition forces that may have allegedly reacted by spraying fire into the crowd.

Usually when this happens the Coalition forces will immediately launch an inquiry to find out how/why their actions caused needless losses. If any were to be found guilty of misconduct they could be liable to prosecution by the legal system. No one will remember that either.


Slainte,

Far too true. I had the unfortunate experience of viewing a Taliban propaganda video where alleged "collaberators" (i.e. school teachers, construction workers, taxi drivers.....) were held down while someone sawed their heads off with a dull knife. The soldiers who were with me (mostly British and what we would think of as hard men) had to turn away in revulsion and disgust, as did I.

While this instills fear in the local population, I would guess it elicits very little support either. Too bad the chattering classes and some of our politicians are not made to sit down and watch some of these cinimatic gems befroe they tell us about how "we" are losing support or how "we" should be talking and negotiating with the Talliban (who would be more than happy to grab said writers and politicians and saw their heads off too).

Perhaps if they really looked at what is happening in Afghanistan (not to mention Iraq and some other parts of the world) instead of through a warped anti American/anti George W Bush prism, then we would get some insightful coverage.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Feasible?  Plausible, esp. among SF???

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Marines Use the Wrong Rules
Strategy Page web site, 29 Mar 07
Article link

In an unusual move, the commander of U.S. special operations troops in the region, ordered a unit of 120 U.S. Marines out of Afghanistan on March 23rd. This was because of the way the marines handled a March 4th incident where they were ambushed by a suicide car bomber and gunfire.

The marines were removed because their reaction to the ambush used "Iraq Rules", and not the less violent procedures employed in Afghanistan. There's more to it than that. SOCOM (Special Operations Command) has long had an uneasy relationship with the U.S. Marine Corps. SOCOM was also uneasy with the leadership of this Special Operations company, and was hoping that the unit would perform well in Afghanistan. The March 4th incident became big news, and that made it difficult for the marine unit to do well in the "winning hearts and minds" department.

This incident is part of an older problem. The marines finally got around to working with SOCOM (Special Operations Command) in late 2005, when it was agreed that they would create a marine special operations command. The Marine Corps had long resisted such a step, largely because of its belief that marines are inherently superior warriors, capable of highly specialized missions. This attitude began to change during the fighting in Afghanistan, when marines were assigned to support SOCOM troops there.

As a result of that experience, marines were attached to SOCOM for liaison and observation purposes. In 2004, the marines organized a company sized unit of commandos, Detachment One, using volunteers from their Force Recon troops, the closest thing the marines had to commandos. Detachment One was sent to Iraq, where it's performance convinced SOCOM that marines could operate at the SOCOM level.

As a result, Marine Special Operations Command (MARSOC) was organized. This unit has some 2,600 marines, organized into a headquarters, a two battalion Special Operations Regiment, a Foreign Military Training Unit, and a Marine Special Operations Support Group.

The only people the marines had who were trained to SOCOMs highest standards were the troops in the four Force Recon companies (one of them a reserve unit). So, naturally, the marines recruited heavily among Force Recon units in order to build MARSOC. As a result, the 2nd Force Reconnaissance Company was disbanded. In effect, an enhanced version of the 2nd Force Recon was created with the formation of Fox company within the new MARSOC 2nd Marine Special Operations Battalion. The two Special Operations Battalions provide a combination of services roughly equal to what the U.S. Army Special Forces and Rangers do. The marines feel that, for some missions, Fox Company marines can perform jobs that SEALs do.

The marines do not intend to just provide some additional Special Forces and Ranger manpower, but people who can do those jobs, but with the addition of amphibious capabilities. Eventually, there are to be nine companies in the two Special Operations Battalion. So far, only four of those companies have been formed. The company that was banished from Afghanistan was the first of these companies formed.

 

[KevinB]

I have not commented on this issue so far but I read bicmac's pile of offal that was posted and figured I would offer some comments.

The fact is that information is controlled heavily in these nations (Iraq and Afghanistan) by religious leaders etc.  They tell the people what to think, they despise independant thought and thus are able to shift public opinion very easily.  I was in Kabul at the US Embassy last year when a US military vehicle (had its brakes fail and it ran into some Afghan vehicle - and some where killed --and the US driver was injured as well) -- One of the ANP at the Embassy got a text message that was going out, and it was claiming the US military intentional rammed the Afghans and hundreds had been killed when the US opened fire.
  As the truth came out the ANP had started shooting when the crowd gathered and got hostile at the US Army personnel.

The "public" opinion in Afghanistan and Iraq is heavily influence by tribal and religious issues.   

The ANA and ANP kill way more bystanders than coalition forces do..
 

 

[McG]

U.S. marines not charged

Afghan officials are furious at the decision to not charge U.S. marines involved in a 2007 shooting spree that left 19 Afghan civilians dead.

Fazel Hadi Muslimyar, head of the Nangarhar provincial council, said the decision not to charge the two officers was "illegal."

"I am very angry," said Kubra Aman, a senator from Nangarhar. "This is too much. They are killing people. First, they say it is a mistake, and after that they let them go without charges."

Both men said they expect protests in Nangarhar once word of the decision spreads.

The incident occurred on March 4, 2007 in the eastern province.

The special operations unit came under attack from a suicide bomber. As the marines fled the area, they opened fire along a 10-kilometre stretch of road. Besides the 19 killed, 50 other Afghans were wounded.

A U.S. military court of inquiry heard more than three weeks of testimony in January.

Lt. Gen. Samuel Helland -- commander of U.S. Marine Corps Forces, Central Command -- decided not to bring charges against Maj. Fred C. Galvin, and Capt. Vincent J. Noble, the marines said.

Galvin commanded the 120-person company. Noble was a platoon leader.

Helland ruled the marines "acted appropriately and in accordance with the rules of engagement and tactics, techniques and procedures in place at the time in response to a complex attack," the marines said.

The incident left Haji Lawania wounded and his father and cousin dead. He also thought the marines' finding was a grave injustice.

"It is true that there was a suicide attack against their convoy," Lawania said. "But I disagree that there was an ambush after the suicide attack."

Lt. Col. Sean Gibson, a marine corps spokesperson, said Friday that the court of inquiry's findings will not be released to the public.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080524/afghan_marines_080524/20080524?hub=TopStories

 

[Yrys]

Afghans appalled Marines not charged in killings

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Afghan officials expressed outrage Saturday at the decision by the U.S. military not to charge U.S. Marines involved in a shooting
spree that left 19 civilians dead in 2007. U.S. military officials said Friday that no criminal charges will be brought against two U.S. Marines officers in a unit
accused of firing indiscriminately at vehicles and civilians after their convoy was hit by a suicide bomber March 4, 2007, in eastern Nangarhar province.

"I am very angry," said Kubra Aman, a senator from Nangarhar. "This is too much. They are killing people. First, they say it is a mistake, and after that they let them
go without charges." Afghan witnesses and a report by Afghanistan's Independent Human Rights Commission concluded that a unit of Marine special operations troops
opened fire along a 10-mile (16 kilometer) stretch of road, killing up to 19 civilians and wounding 50 other people.

However, Lt. Gen. Samuel Helland, the commander of U.S. Marine Corps Forces, Central Command, decided not to bring charges against Maj. Fred C. Galvin,
commander of the 120-person special operations company, and Capt. Vincent J. Noble, a platoon leader, the Marines said. Helland determined that the Marines in the
convoy "acted appropriately and in accordance with the rules of engagement and tactics, techniques and procedures in place at the time in response to a complex
attack," the Marines said.

The ruling was made after reviewing the findings of a special tribunal that heard more than three weeks of testimony in January.

The United Nations mission in Afghanistan criticized the decision. "It is disappointing that no one has been held accountable for these deaths," said Aleem Siddique, a
spokesman for the mission. "The United Nations has always made clear that there must be increased transparency and accountability of all parties to this conflict if we
are to retain the trust and confidence of the Afghan people."

Fazel Hadi Muslimyar, the head of the provincial council in Nangarhar province, called the decision not to charge the two officers "illegal." "When the incident happened,
American officers came to us, and they apologized and said that 'This was a mistake by our soldiers,' " Muslimyar said. "How come that mistake was not acted upon and
they were not charged?" Aman and Muslimyar both said they expect protests in Nangarhar once local people learn of the decision.

Haji Lawania, who was wounded in the shooting that killed his father and cousin, called the decision a "grave injustice." "It is true that there was a suicide attack against
their convoy," Lawania said. "But I disagree that there was an ambush after the suicide attack."

Marine spokesman Lt. Col. Sean Gibson said Friday that the finding of the Court of Inquiry -- 12,000 pages -- will not be released to the public.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Does posting the MSM sidebar make everyone feel good? Death by a thousand cuts. Just what the enemy wants. Were any of the posters there? Do you know what happened..specifically?

Oh, "I'm just posting what the MEDIA put on the wire!"

Get a grip people. This is more a propoganda war than anything else. Every time you post their "Poor, whoa is me" shit you aid and abet the enemy.

The MSM is NOT our friend. Circulating their specific message is NOT in our interest.

We don't know the facts, and may never will. This is a PR war and the facts get manipulated. Quit playing into their trap.

If you can't read the slant and direction Kubra Aman, a senator from Nangarhar, is trying to push, you're blind.

It's got nothing to do with people.... and all to do with money and power.

Shake your heads.

 

[FoverF]

recceguy, I appreciate where you're coming from, but I have to differ on several of your points.

Were any of the posters there? Do you know what happened..specifically?

Since when does a poster have to be present at an event to post someone else's article about it? If you have reason to disagree with some of the facts presented in the article, or just think the author is clearly trying to bias the story, that's fine. Feel free to critique it. Go ahead and analyze, dissect, and refute (if erroneous) with facts. That's how you defuse propaganda.

But don't jump on people for reproducing the MSM articles that the public is reading. You're acting like Yrys researched and wrote the damn thing. She took an article that the public is consuming, and presented it here for discussion. I think your accusation of 'playing into their trap' is off-base. 

"Poor, whoa is me" crap

I think I'd have to have some pretty big balls before I dismissed 19 fatalities and 50 people wounded with that kind of attitude, especially if I had just admitted that I was not privvy to all the facts of the situation.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

recceguy, I appreciate where you're coming from, but I have to differ on several of your points.

That's fair. I just get overwhelmed with the bullshit occasionally. Mea culpa.