3VP to have two Jump coys ???

[George Wallace]

Ah! ...... Defeatism in the upper echelons so peeves me off. :threat:

Anyway....perhaps we ought to return to the topic of 3VP changing berets between companies or split this thread and further discuss the relevance of steps being taken to make our CF a Third World Armed Force.?

GW

 

[Jungle]

OK, my $0.02 on the subject of 3 PPCLI's "task rotation": according to the report of the Lght Infantry Working Group, the Army's intentions is to train and equip the 3 LIBs for spec-ops. Now we know we can't have all three ready and equipped at the same time. Also, it is desired (as stated in the report) to have as many members as possible in the Battalion qual'd B-Para. Now what I think, 3VP's CO wants his Battalion to get ahead and be the first to get the rotating "national QRF" task (Or whatever it will be called).
Inter-Regt rivalry at it again...

 

[George Wallace]

That or getting his "Ticket Punched"

GW

 

[devil39]

Yowza, looks like I opened a can of worms there; I better retreat before I take a beating!

I do not deny the esprit de corps that highly cohesive jump units have, but deep down I question whether that comes from a three week basic para course or from something else.   These soldiers would most likely excel in any military role; 3VP in Afghanistan, even with its attached "leg" unit from its sister battalion, was highly regarded in less spectacular (then a combat jump) Air Assault Ops.  

Ha!  Highly regarded even with their attached "leg" unit?  Go figure!  :  )

My personal belief is that if nothing else, parachuting is a good gut check (albeit somewhat expensive I guess).  My personal experience would lead me to believe that the closest feeling to the real Air Assault Op might be something like a night jump, double door exit, full kit.  An opinion however, and as we know they are not unlike a**holes.

It goes back to the truth in the old Monty quote that Jungle sports as his sig I guess.  

 

[Spr.Earl]

Parachute troops, of any kind, are not supposed to be used at the tactical level. They are a STRATEGIC ressource. This is why the CAR, and for a period the SSF, was directly under Army command. This is also why the Para coys should not be in a unit that is part of a Bde. A Brigade Commander has no use for Airborne troops, because his area of ops is (usually) too small.
See discussion here: http://army.ca/forums/threads/17022.45.html

Hear,Hear!!!

But we still need Paras and at this time we must deal with what we have under our present Gov. Defence Policy.

Just a trivia question.
Who in the C.F. has the mnost Jumps?
A SAR Tech.?A Para?

 

[devil39]

Air assault is usually an operation carried out at the tactical level. Helicopters have limited range, and carry limited payloads (especially ours). Anything that fits in a C-130 can be dropped. We need both capabilities, in greater numbers, and with larger airframes of both fixed and rotary wings.

I would say Air Assault is carried out at the tactical level of organization, but with operational and perhaps possibly strategic level effect.   Current air assault is expected to launch into the operational depth of the enemy.

As for Airborne, Daniel Bolger sums it up best in his book "Death Ground".   What Airborne gives the US is a quick reaction, forcible entry capability over strategic distances.   Regardless of how rarely it is used, it is too valuable a capability to be totally rid of.   A light division on the ground in something like 48 hrs, anywhere in the world from the US point of view.  A good threat if nothing else.

 

[Spr.Earl]

The only time were Strategic drops come in to play is with in the realm of Sp.Ops.i.e Specail Forces.
A total Air Assault comes under the guise of a total Corps Assault in the sence of our past Para Hiostory which is WWII.
Read the History of Air Borne Assault.
We need it and must maintain it untill somthing better comes along.

This just from a Leg Sapper.

 

[Armymedic]

One obvious role that has not been discussed is things like sovereignty ex or things like MAJAID(sp) Major Air Disaster recovery roles. Perfect roles for a coy (+) size paratrooping element inserted into remote northern areas to assist other CF assets.

 

[excoelis]

I agree with this initiative for all the reasons Mark C has so eloquently outlined and I will field another:

I have worn the maroon beret for 15 yrs uninterrupted service as a designated/hard para position.  There is a big difference between a parachutist and a paratrooper.  Unfortunately, sometimes the Para Coys end up with parachutists posing as paratroopers.  How do you tell the difference you ask?  Have two VOLUNTARY jumps on a weekend, the first a bare-ass ramp jump, the second a night full eqpt jump from 1000ft.  Then check the manifests to see:
1. Who didn't show at all
2. Who jumped bare ass only
3. Who your paratroopers are.

When I was UEO of the Bn I actually had Paratroopers, JMs, and PIs within the unit try to tell me they wouldn't do their jobs because they weren't collecting designated para allowance.  I just couldn't understand that mentality. 

In my current job I am wearing a green beret and I am no longer collecting $300 a month in para allowance.  Does this change the essence of what I am?  NO FUCKING WAY :threat:

Take away the berets, para allowance, and any of the other superfluous trappings and all you'll be left with is the dedicated and hard core life takers, heart breakers, and soul stealers. :threat:

IMHO we still need the capability and we still need these like-minded troops grouped together to foster a superior work ethic and dynamic.

Give them any beret you want, call them anything you want,  just don't call them too late for the fight

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

There is a different side to that also, I could've cared less WHAT type of jump it was, I only cared about how long that torture thing they call an airplane ride lasted.  For me taking that flight from Trenton when I didn't have to would be like you asking for a severe hangover just to sample one beer.
Bruce

 

[excoelis]

Bruce,

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that is the point.  Despite the issue of when, if, and how we will ever use this strategic(or otherwise) capability, it is probably the physical and mental challenges inherent to jumping that lies at the heart of the matter(ala JUNGLE's sig line).  It takes a different kind of soldier to strap all that kit on and hurl himself out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft on the green light and/or the Jumpmasters word of command.  He is subordinating his own personal safety and needs to that of the unit.  He puts his faith in the chain of command to make sure he is delivered with as much threat mitigation as possible.  In addition to the big picture, the paratrooper also has complete faith in those that execute said delivery.  I believe it is this conditioning that creates a soldier capable of relegating personal comfort, fear, and maybe even common sense to the back burner in the relentless pursuit of the mission.  Granted, there are other ways to prove oneself 'battle worthy', but this is the method that I am most familiar with, and wholeheartedly believe in.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You are not wrong, in fact I couldn't agree more.   I just took a small execption to the way you presented the situation in which you determined who was "real para". The key word was "voluntary" so maybe giving up time with the kids, etc.
I'm not sure I can except the way that situation was put. Everyone has a different reason for doing what they do. Just so you know where I'm talking from I did 5 years cas para in 2 RCHA, the reason I did not put up the maroon beret was simply by doing it this way I could pick the ones with small flights, however if NEEDED I was willing to put with the aircraft thing.  Flying back from Ft Bragg combat style from Ottawa to Pet. in a Starlifter was probably the worst half-hour of my life but.......
Bruce

EDIT: edited because I associate everything in Pet to 8 years but I was only cas para for 5.*  must think before type! :blotto:*

 

[McG]

As far as sufficient PIs, JMs, DZ Controllers, etc, are concerned, this is pretty much a non-issue.   Every time 3 VP does a jump cycle, it is typically an "all hands man the pumps" effort to get everyone through the refreshers, JM checked, and dispatched.   In my experience roughly 60% of the battalion jumps whenever   there are sufficient chutes and lift for "continuation para",

3 VP also does a good job of opening positions to 1 CER during these jumps (I assume 1 Fd Amb also gets spots).   It really is a Bde wide activity.

1 CER has a justifiable (if unofficial) requirement to man a single para-qualified field-section (plus a few spare personnel), in order to provide engineer support to the 3 PPCLI para coy should a "company group" be formed.   That is 1 CER's ONLY para requirement, and even those few positions are (to my knowledge) not formally jump-tasked.  

Each CER has a light troop.   In this troop the regiments will try to keep one unofficial jump section and the entire Tp HQ jump qualified.   However, I have known units to try and get everyone in the light troop through basic para, and the majority of the troop's SHQ jump qualified.   None of the positions are formally tasked.

I have argued before that a section is probably too small to provide a spectrum of support.  However with the light & para tasked elements spread across the Army as they are there is little better we can do now.  The solution might be a light brigade with an airborne battalion (this would justify an airborne field squadron).

http://army.ca/forums/threads/2127.0.html
http://army.ca/forums/threads/17810/post-85795.html#msg85795

 

[devil39]

The only time were Strategic drops come in to play is with in the realm of Sp.Ops.i.e Specail Forces.
A total Air Assault comes under the guise of a total Corps Assault in the sence of our past Para Hiostory which is WWII.
Read the History of Air Borne Assault.
We need it and must maintain it untill somthing better comes along.

This just from a Leg Sapper.

Spr. Earl ,

For you a quote from FM-100-5.   I might need to read my Airborne history, however you might want to read some doctrine.  


"An opposed entry requires combat operations to
land deploying forces in the theater. If the circumstances
are right, the entry and combat operations
stages could combine in a coup de main, achieving
the strategic objectives in a single major operation.
Operation Just Cause, conducted in Panama in 1989,
is such an example. "



(edited for incorrect reference)