33 CBG ICE issue in the works

[deh]

Hmmm. The ICE is indeed the very same thing as the IECS...only it has the cadpat outter shell.
And you may be confusing the Army Clothe the Soldier ICE with the Air Force Cadpat CEMS Gortex Jacket (Clothing & Equipment Millineum Standard).

The CEMS Gortex jacket is the Air Force cadpat jacket and IT is the one with the handwarmer pockets.

So we have 3 different animals:
1) Gortex IECS (Army issue olive drab gortex coat);
2) Gortex ICE (Army issue cadpat gortex coat); and
3) Gortex CEMS (Air Force issue cadpat jacket with warm fuzzy pockets).

While I shudder to disagree with a supply tech about equipment I'm not 100% sure that this is true.  All my room mates CADPAT ICE gear has the handwarmer pockets.  Currently I have the parka (Shell, Parka Combat ICE NSN 8415-21-920-9973) sitting on my lap and it most definitely does have those fleece lined pockets.  You can see both the nomenclature and the zipper from the pocket in the photo attached.  Could this have changed?  regards,

daniel

 

[armyvern]

Well...it would only make sense to 'merge' the two patterns such as they did with the cadpats. It can only save money in the long run to bring in one design vice two.

 

[geo]

still not convinced about the OD and CADPAT jackets are identical
there is certainly a difference between the hoods.

Will do a comparaison test tomorrow and comment.

 

[deh]

There is a list of modifications and differences in the designs for each garment between ICE and IECS pegged at
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/2/242_e.asp
As well they talk of the convergence of Army and Air Force into one universal design.Aside from the covered buttons, handwarmers and using velcro instead of buttons on the hood the parka is nearly identical.  Same materials listed on the tags as well.  I can post photo's if you there is some kind of demand.  Hope this helps!  Regards,

daniel

 

[armyvern]

I think there's already more than enough links to CTS and their pics on the forum already. Tonnes of threads happening regarding ICE, Gortex, cadpat...you name it...it's already here.

 

[armyvern]

still not convinced about the OD and CADPAT jackets are identical
there is certainly a difference between the hoods.

Will do a comparaison test tomorrow and comment.

Design is different Geo. But the make-up of the jacket itself is the same. Save for the outter layer material shell. The ICE is different from the IECS.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Don't know about you but was on a rainy range in November. Some had the new CADPAT jackets while others had the OD ones. Didn't take long for the ODs to get soaked thru while I stayed dry through the whole day.... I'm no tech but I know what wet is.... there's gotta be a difference in the specs

Geo I think the reason some stayed dry was the ICE kit has the Gortex waterproof-breathable laminate is actually near the top of the jacket rather than next to the wearer in the IECS jacket. (or so I have been told by my contacts at LFTEU)

The probably reason why your cadpat ICE jacket stayed 'dry' and the OD IECS jackets got 'wet' is due to the DWR (Durable Water Repellent) Treatment given to the new nyco (nylon-cotton) twill shell of the ICE jacket. 
All material is given this DWR treatment at the fabric mill and it causes water to 'bead' on the surface rather than be absorbed into the material.
Over time through exposure to the elements and repeated launderings, the DWR treatment wears off and water stops beading on the surface and is is absorbed into the material immediately.
A characteristic of the nyco twill shell is that since there is cotton in the material, it is a great absorber of water.  As the DWR wears off, this becomes much more apparent.

In order for a WB (Waterproof-Breathable) garment to work is largely dependent on the ability of the water vapor that is passed through the WB membrane to pass through the shell fabric.  A shell fabric that is saturated in liquid water cannot pass water vapor (coming from the inside of the jacket) as effectively as a shell fabric that is not saturated.  Wen your surface fabric is saturated, any water vapor passing through the WB membrane condenses when it comes in contact with the saturated shell fabric and the WB membrane thus effectively stops passing moisture from the inside of the jacket through to the outer shell and the wearer starts to feel wet from a buildup of internal moisture, which eventually begins to turn from moisture vapor into liquid, and over time, gives the impression that your jacket is soaking wet.

The best thing you can do is that if you're wearing either the ICE or IECS jackets is to treat them regularly with a water-repellent spray/wash ie. Nikwax, Scotchguard, Granger's, etc.  This will keep the surface fabric beading water, and allowing the WB membrane to pass moisture vapor from inside the jacket.

What a far more efficient system is when the WB membrane is laminated directly to the face fabric.  This allows for a faster rate of transmission of internal moisture outwards, and when an inherently water-repellent fabric (read a non-cotton/cotton blend) is used that process isn't retarded by wetting-out/saturation of the surface fabric.  Additionally, a 'shell' type jacket like this is considerably lighter as you are going from 3 layers of material to 1 as the surface fabric, WB membrane and tricot lining are sandwiched into a single layer.

A good example of such this efficient concept is the ICE Tactical Hardshell jacket (no relation to the CF issued AirForce or Army ICE jacket):
http://www.icetactical.com/hard-shelljkt.html
ICE will be producing a Canadianized version of this jacket in Cadpat temperate.  Anyone interested in it please email me for details:  matt@icetactical.com

 

[sigtech]

Just a little note about the Pres getting the ICE system, no not all reg units have it and we are still waiting on it. Now here is where it gets interesting. ICES will no longer be issued so therefore it isn't purchased anymore so if you need to get a new jacket and are still not entitled to it good luck. I had to wait almost a mouth to get a jacket that would even come close to fitting me. So should the PRes start getting these items when there are bases like Kingston that don't even stock these items yet for Regforce members?

 

[geo]

sigtech...
would imagine that there's a large order coming in with the new budget.
(Lots of people in Montreal in the same boat as Kingston)

 

[sigtech]

let's hope a buddy of mine went to the GM to get a new Jacket (ICE) because he blew the zipper out and he got sorry we only order them in as needed. Sad when a serving member can't even get a Jacket shrug let's hope the new goverment sends more money (I don't think I will hold my breath)

 

[armyvern]

Canadian Parachute Centre (CPC) hasn't been 'converted' to ICE yet either.

 

[geo]

I do find it interesting that the initial distribution of ICE is being dragged out....
wonder what the story is?

 

[armyvern]

I do find it interesting that the initial distribution of ICE is being dragged out....
wonder what the story is?

Quite simple, the Air Force placed one huge contract order, paying for enough quantities of CEMS to ensure there was enough to kit all their pers mass delivered into the Supply system.

The Army didn't purchase this way. They placed smaller contractor orders, with staggered delivery dates into the system from the contractor over several years vice all at once.

 

[geo]

Armyvern
Uhhh.... yeah - figured that out for myself
Just wondering on the economies experienced by the army by doing it this way.
Smaller orders usually spell out - higher unit cost $$$.... at the end of the day - did we save anything?

 

[armyvern]

Armyvern
Uhhh.... yeah - figured that out for myself
Just wondering on the economies experienced by the army by doing it this way.
Smaller orders usually spell out - higher unit cost $$$.... at the end of the day - did we save anything?

A question better posed to those who were involved in the decision making process at NDHQ. Well beyond the Supply Tech to answer this one.

Perhaps, the Army had to budget it over X number of years due to replacing other equipment, vehs, wpns etc concurrently with new clothing items, deployed operations costs etc? Plus, the Army did come out with a whole lot more kit items  than the Air Force to purchase than the CEMS project did...costing a whole bunch more money. And we have a whole lot more personnel to kit out than the AF does. Don't know if that's the answer, but it's all I can think of to explain it.

 

[lawandorder]

Well its past the 25th of January 06, and I am with an Ottawa reserve unit and still haven't recieved anything new like what is being described.  Any new details?

 

[armyvern]

NDHQ is currently in the process of kitting out their Regular Force personnel. Your time will come.

 

[Sig_Des]

NDHQ is currently in the process of kitting out their Regular Force personnel. Your time will come.

hmm, I think I know how you feel about that one >

 

[armyvern]

hmm, I think I know how you feel about that one >

Yepper.... I don't decide who gets them on what priority .... I just get to hand them out, listen to the complaints (not always nicely!!), and answer as to why or why not...

 

[Sig_Des]

Yepper.... I don't decide who gets them on what priority .... I just get to hand them out, listen to the complaints (not always nicely!!), and answer as to why or why not...

LOL, I remember someone trying to exchange their Gerber....When asked what was wrong with it, they said they wanted one of the black ones instead...I believe they referred to it as a "Ninja-Gerber".

look on the Sup Techs face, priceless. I just happened to be getting my Gerber issued to me, and I think just to spite the guy, he gave me a black one. I was just happy to GET one.