2023 UCP Alberta election
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IKnowNothing
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Mr. Tombe has another paper out, pages 15-17 make a pretty compelling case for a different interpretation of the act's actual language than the Robart interpretation- which was made prior to the reforms of the 90's.
The Alberta Pension Advantage? A Quantitative Analysis of a Separate Provincial Plan
What I find deeply frustrating is the that JT is choosing performative politics vs. Smith instead of acting responsibly and modifying the act to remove ambiguity and codify a reasonable and specific exit calculation
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Halifax Tar
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I suspect the reason is they feel this way is they feel they are contributing more than their share to our nation and get nothing but feedback and static in return.
This is the issue with our social programs and policies. They work until the contributors feel like they aren't getting a worthy return, and leeches have grown out of control. I know I certainly feel I don't get a good return on my forced investment (tax contributions) into this country.
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I don’t think an APP will ever see the light of day. My point remains that this could go in unexpected directions.
I am deeply frustrated we have a Federal Government that has so mishandled Federal-Provincial relations over the past 8 year that we have even gotten to this point.
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Perhaps you’re not appreciating the ‘R’ in ROI?
Why would the rate of investment go down? Total earnings is not the same. If…if…Alberta were to secede las the CPP Act legally allows, and it was issued with whatever amount was eventually transferred, be it 15%, 18%, 20%, %25, heck even the pre-negotiations spaghetti of 54% thrown at the wall…the smaller pool of Alberta’s annuitants drawing on a similarly (and likely proportional +/- ration to capital in an APP fund) would be minimally different than the C - Q - A rest of Canada and their equally proportionately smaller CPP fund. The issue is the question what respective contribution rates and disbursement rates would be, and by many accounts, the APP would be no worse off than the CPP fund, and in some cases, it would appear that this could be achieved with a lower contribution rate in Alberta than in the ROC (8.3% vs 9.5% I recall), based on Alberta workers/contributors relative youth relative to other ROC CPP contributors.
Totally fair
Perhaps you’re not appreciating the ‘R’ in ROI?
Why would the rate of investment go down? Total earnings is not the same. If…if…Alberta were to secede las the CPP Act legally allows, and it was issued with whatever amount was eventually transferred, be it 15%, 18%, 20%, %25, heck even the pre-negotiations spaghetti of 54% thrown at the wall…the smaller pool of Alberta’s annuitants drawing on a similarly (and likely proportional +/- ration to capital in an APP fund) would be minimally different than the C - Q - A rest of Canada and their equally proportionately smaller CPP fund. The issue is the question what respective contribution rates and disbursement rates would be, and by many accounts, the APP would be no worse off than the CPP fund, and in some cases, it would appear that this could be achieved with a lower contribution rate in Alberta than in the ROC (8.3% vs 9.5% I recall), based on Alberta workers/contributors relative youth relative to other ROC CPP contributors.
The pet Alberta’s not saying out loud is that a relatively higher proportion of younger workers work in Alberta for some years, contribute to CPP up to the YMPE, and then leave Alberta later in life, living out their retirement elsewhere. A fair division of assets would need to take into account relative proportion of earnings years spent in Alberta, and relative proportion of benefits-drawing-years not spent in Alberta.
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As is done for QPP as well. I contributed to QPP for a couple of years. I’ll draw from CPP. That’s understood, and I don’t see where there is any expectation otherwise. That would be taking into account in a fair and honest discussion between Canada and Alberta, in accordance with the Act.
FSTO
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You are likely very correct. I also fear that the UCP will call this (lets say) an "Alberta Reverse Mortgage" and blow it away with Ralph Bucks!Perhaps you’re not appreciating the ‘R’ in ROI?
Why would the rate of investment go down? Total earnings is not the same. If…if…Alberta were to secede las the CPP Act legally allows, and it was issued with whatever amount was eventually transferred, be it 15%, 18%, 20%, %25, heck even the pre-negotiations spaghetti of 54% thrown at the wall…the smaller pool of Alberta’s annuitants drawing on a similarly (and likely proportional +/- ration to capital in an APP fund) would be minimally different than the C - Q - A rest of Canada and their equally proportionately smaller CPP fund. The issue is the question what respective contribution rates and disbursement rates would be, and by many accounts, the APP would be no worse off than the CPP fund, and in some cases, it would appear that this could be achieved with a lower contribution rate in Alberta than in the ROC (8.3% vs 9.5% I recall), based on Alberta workers/contributors relative youth relative to other ROC CPP contributors.
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That would be unfortunate, but hearing from my cousins in AB and Storie’s of the once great Heritage Fund, I don’t discount that as a possibility, although it is unlikely, because legislatively, it would most likely be a fund of a similar nature as to the CPP and QPPminvedtment funds, not some vaporous Govermnent electronic account reconciled against the province’s general operating account.
And in an interesting twist…
This might be lead to some colourful disagreements if PP becomes PM.
This might be lead to some colourful disagreements if PP becomes PM.
I would ask for you to direct your cousins in Ab to this link Heritage Savings Trust Fund read about the actual fund. Not the BS that has been floating around about it. Opinions and views often are backed up by facts.
If anything Alberta's Heritage Fund should be 4-5 times the size it is if we had control over provincial finances like Quebec does.
IKnowNothing
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Is it really a twist? I would have bet serious money that he would be against it
It’s probable yes. I would have thought he’d stay quiet about it and let Trudeau and Smith go at it but he’s got Alberta locked in his corner regardless.
I’m guessing he is telegraphing what a CPC government’s position will be if that time comes where Alberta would need to negotiate their exit from the plan.
He knows Alberta’s safe for him in an electoon. This is a signal to the rest of Canada that prevents the LPC from planting any seeds that CPC would support the dismemberment of the Canada Pension Plan. It’s a low risk position, because the clamor for an APP is mostly just resistance to the LPC federal government. Elect the conservatives federally and I think it would mostly fade.
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Mostly?
Many of the people whom I know that worked out of province were taxed in their home province. If your primary residence was elsewhere your tax was paid there, not here. Which was a big kick in the pants when things started to slow down and we still had all these high paid out of province workers here. They were using Provincial resources such as hospital, roads, local infrastructure but paying their tax elsewhere. Other areas of the country loved it for the free revenue..
I would imagine that the CPP portion would be figured out very easily. Whos' where what and when.
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If we're believing polling these days (like those showing PP well ahead of JT), looks like "stay in CPP" is backed by more Canadians & Albertans than "GTFO CPP" - for the moment, anyway.
Source (archived link here)
Albertans not fans of plan to withdraw from CPP: poll | CityNews Calgary
Canadians and Albertans are not with the Alberta government's plan to withdraw from the Canada Pension Plan, according to a recent poll.
calgary.citynews.ca
‘Playing with fire’: Poll shows Albertans still aren’t in favour of provincial pension plan | Globalnews.ca
Recent polling shows a majority of Albertans and Canadians think leaving the CPP for a proposed Alberta pension plan is a bad idea.
globalnews.ca
Halifax Tar
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If you read the article its just PP saying he wants Alberta to stay in the CPP and its the LPCs fault that this subject has reared its ugly head, and if he was the PM it wouldn't be an issue as he would give Alberta the freedom it needs to develop its resources.
Seems reasonable to me.
Was that Freudian ? lol
So those workers from out of province using your hospitals would not have had a provincial health card meaning your province would have recouped those costs from those people’s home provinces under the appropriate reciprocal agreements.
Also infrastructure paid for by some and gets used by others isn’t unique to Alberta. It’s the cost of doing business and the cost to make sure business can happen.
Those same workers spent money in your province and not in their home provinces as well. It’s all a bit macro but the return is more than the expense. This is why Alberta is doing a lot of things to attract out of province workers.
Nothing unreasonable about his position. A rare occasion where he is in agreement with Trudeau and vice versa.
But it only reinforces that this isn’t about the CPP and what Albertans get from that. That likely explains the current low support in Alberta for that course of action and the UCP a inflating what it thinks it should get in order to convince.
For the record, I think Alberta has every right to explore their own APP and should not be impeded in their efforts to do so. I personally think they would be better off staying in the CPP but it’s up to them to make that choice. But I also don’t think they are being realistic in the expectation of getting anywhere near the number they have put forward.
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