• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

2023 Canadian Armed Forces General and Flag Officer senior promotions and appointments

And some updates;

Anyone know where the Captain's night order book from 1991 might still be kicking around? that seems like a stretch. I thought the OOW notebook (Ship's Log?) gets archived but usually the Captain's NOB was in a leatherbound book that I thought the CO's kept. You would think if that's part of the testimony it would be entered into evidence but who knows what happened and got left out of the reporting.

No tanker time, but usually the NavO wasn't on the watch rotation regularly, but would still be on the bridge all the time, especially prior to big evolutions, during particular transits, and also to help train new BWKs, so kind of a dubious point to raise as a 'gotcha' Macguyver moment.

Also back when there was a night steward, anyone could put in for a shake, but really stopped being used as generally gets done departmentally to wake up the reliefs.

For the army guys, basically you get a list of 'shakes' for the oncoming replacements, and usually with a note of when (1 hr before watch, 30 mins etc) and one or two juniour folks take 5 minutes to go around and wake people up. It sounds archaic but made sense before everyone had a phone in their pocket, and even now that way you aren't waking everyone up with your stupid alarm (or sleeping through it). Makes sense, especially when you are bunking with 51 friends, but not sure what the equivalent is called for when someone is taking over picket duty or something.

Aside from coming on watch, you also have shakes in for things like if you have to close up for a RAS, close manuevering, force protection, flying stations whatever, as well as for some scheduled training. (As a side note, QoL for the MSE department of scheduling drill periods during the normal workday just after meal times was huge; getting shook at 0500 to get ready for 0600 drills got old when usually was up until 0000 and shook a few times for equipment failures IAW the MSE NOB).

There is a map on the door showing which rack someone is sleeping in, so it's pretty straightforward as long as the map is up to date (and you don't have 3 or 4 people with the same last name).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/haydn-edmundson-sexual-assault-trial-1.7110920

Retired vice-admiral Edmundson denies sexual assault, exposing himself to woman, court hears​

Crown set to cross-examine Edmundson on Tuesday​

mark-gollom.jpg

Mark Gollom · CBC News · Posted: Feb 11, 2024 3:04 PM EST | Last Updated: 10 minutes ago
Retired vice-admiral Haydn Edmundson arrives to court in Ottawa on Thursday, Feb. 8, 2024. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Sean Kilpatrick

Retired vice-admiral Haydn Edmundson denied in an Ottawa courtroom that he sexually assaulted or exposed himself to a woman who claims he attacked her while on deployment on a naval ship more than 30 years ago. (Sean Kilpatrick/The Canadian Press)

Social Sharing​


  • Facebook

  • X

  • Email

  • Reddit

  • LinkedIn
WARNING: This story contains details of an alleged sexual assault.
Retired vice-admiral Haydn Edmundson denied in an Ottawa courtroom on Monday that he sexually assaulted or exposed himself to a woman who claims he attacked her while on deployment on a naval ship more than 30 years ago.
"The early evening of Nov. 8, 1991, did you kiss, embrace or engage in any sexual contact with [the complainant]?" his lawyer, Brian Greenspan, asked.
"No, I did not," Edmundson said.
He also denied he came into any physical or sexual contact with the complainant on that date or that she had been alone with him in his cabin.
Earlier on Monday, Edmundson, who is trial for sexual assault and committing indecent acts, also denied he had ever exposed himself to the woman or anyone who was assigned to wake him up for his duties as night watch.
His testimony — the first time court has heard from him since the trial began a week ago — countered statements made by the woman, who has accused him of attacking her in November 1991. She previously told court that Edmundson exposed himself to her when she went to awaken him as part of her duties.
The woman, whose name is protected under a publication ban, testified that this incident had happened just a couple of days before he allegedly sexually assaulted her and was part of a progressive behaviour in which he had exposed parts of his body to her on other occasions of being awakened.
Edmundson, 60, was charged in December 2021, with one count of sexual assault and one count of committing indecent acts. He has pleaded not guilty and denied any wrongdoing. Edmundson has since resigned as head of military personnel command.
He has also retired from the Canadian Armed Forces, something he was directed to do in February 2022, following being charged in this case, he told the court on Monday. He said he is currently unemployed.
On Monday, he was asked by Greenspan if he had any recollection of "having been exposed" to those who would have been assigned to wake him up for his night watch duty.
"I do not," Edmundson said.
"Did you progressively expose yourself to [the complainant]?" Greenspan asked.
"No, I did not."
Edmundson, seated on the far right beside his lawyers, is being tried in the Ontario Court of Justice by a judge alone

Edmundson, seated on the far right beside his lawyers, is shown in an Ottawa courtroom last week as the woman who claims he sexually assaulted her testifies in the witness box. (Lauren Foster-MacLeod/CBC)
Edmundson also testified he didn't recall the complainant ever coming into his cabin to wake him up and that he didn't have a bunkmate on the date at which she alleges she had her outburst.
Edmundson is being tried in the Ontario Court of Justice by a judge alone. Court has heard that the alleged assault took place on a ship as it was docked at a U.S. navy base on Nov. 8, 1991. At the time of the alleged assault, Edmundson was lieutenant-commander, the navigator of the ship.

Claims Edmundson exposed himself​

Last week, the woman told court that her duties aboard the ship included waking up officers, including Edmundson, for their night shift. She testified that on one particular mission, some of Edmundson's body parts would be exposed when she would go to wake him.
She said in one instance, a couple of days before the alleged sexual assault, she'd had an outburst when she went to wake Edmundson for his night shift and found him lying in the bed naked. The woman said she lost her composure, yelled and turned on the lights, in part to wake up Edmundson's bunkmate so he could witness the behaviour she had to deal with.
On Monday, Greenspan asked Edmundson if any of that occurred.
"No that did not happen," he said.
Edmundson told court that he had reviewed the captain's night order book, in which officers record their initials when they would go on night watch.
He said that according to the book, he wasn't on night watch duty on the night that the complainant says she had her outburst. He said that during that particular deployment, the last time he'd been on night watch was Oct. 31.
Edmundson also told court that he never slept naked and always wore undershorts and a shirt.

Court hears graphic details of alleged assault​

Last week, court heard graphic details from the woman about the alleged assault.
She testified that on the evening of the alleged assault, the door to Edmundson's quarters was ajar as she passed by and she heard him shout for her to come speak with him.
She told the court that while in his cabin, she froze and feared for her life as Edmundson approached her, kissed her, unbuttoned her shirt and bra, pulled down her shorts and underwear and kissed her vagina.
She told the court that Edmundson then grabbed her by the hips, turned her around and "proceeded raping me."
The Crown is set to cross-examine Edmundson on Tuesday.
Click to expand...
 
Navy_Pete said:
And some updates;

Anyone know where the Captain's night order book from 1991 might still be kicking around? that seems like a stretch. I thought the OOW notebook (Ship's Log?) gets archived but usually the Captain's NOB was in a leatherbound book that I thought the CO's kept. You would think if that's part of the testimony it would be entered into evidence but who knows what happened and got left out of the reporting.

No tanker time, but usually the NavO wasn't on the watch rotation regularly, but would still be on the bridge all the time, especially prior to big evolutions, during particular transits, and also to help train new BWKs, so kind of a dubious point to raise as a 'gotcha' Macguyver moment.

Also back when there was a night steward, anyone could put in for a shake, but really stopped being used as generally gets done departmentally to wake up the reliefs.

For the army guys, basically you get a list of 'shakes' for the oncoming replacements, and usually with a note of when (1 hr before watch, 30 mins etc) and one or two juniour folks take 5 minutes to go around and wake people up. It sounds archaic but made sense before everyone had a phone in their pocket, and even now that way you aren't waking everyone up with your stupid alarm (or sleeping through it). Makes sense, especially when you are bunking with 51 friends, but not sure what the equivalent is called for when someone is taking over picket duty or something.

Aside from coming on watch, you also have shakes in for things like if you have to close up for a RAS, close manuevering, force protection, flying stations whatever, as well as for some scheduled training. (As a side note, QoL for the MSE department of scheduling drill periods during the normal workday just after meal times was huge; getting shook at 0500 to get ready for 0600 drills got old when usually was up until 0000 and shook a few times for equipment failures IAW the MSE NOB).

There is a map on the door showing which rack someone is sleeping in, so it's pretty straightforward as long as the map is up to date (and you don't have 3 or 4 people with the same last name).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/haydn-edmundson-sexual-assault-trial-1.7110920
Click to expand...
I was on that ship for that deployment. His shakes wouldn't have been in the Night Order's book though - they would be in the Shake Book. The Night Orders book would have had a spot for the oncoming OOW to sign, and I assume he means he didn't see his signature in it for the night watches in question. Perhaps the CO still has his Night Order's books and allowed him to review them?? I suppose that could be done without entering them into evidence?? Dunno. shrug

I know that I still have all omine Night Order's books - they are a great history of exactly where the ship was, what it was doing, and where it was going, each night at sea. Ill be passing mine on to my nephews when I die. So I wouldn't be surprised is Capt Foldesi still has his.

Departmental shakes are a thing for sure, but when it comes to BWKs - there is no Department to shake you since the OOW can't leave the bridge. Someone from the Watch-On-Deck always shook the oncoming OOW in all of my ships.
 
Navy_Pete said:
For the army guys, basically you get a list of 'shakes' for the oncoming replacements, and usually with a note of when (1 hr before watch, 30 mins etc) and one or two juniour folks take 5 minutes to go around and wake people up. It sounds archaic but made sense before everyone had a phone in their pocket, and even now that way you aren't waking everyone up with your stupid alarm (or sleeping through it). Makes sense, especially when you are bunking with 51 friends, but not sure what the equivalent is called for when someone is taking over picket duty or something.
Click to expand...
Got it. In the Infantry we have similar things but not as formal as the Navy.
 
Navy_Pete said:
For the army guys, basically you get a list of 'shakes' for the oncoming replacements, and usually with a note of when (1 hr before watch, 30 mins etc) and one or two juniour folks take 5 minutes to go around and wake people up. It sounds archaic but made sense before everyone had a phone in their pocket, and even now that way you aren't waking everyone up with your stupid alarm (or sleeping through it). Makes sense, especially when you are bunking with 51 friends, but not sure what the equivalent is called for when someone is taking over picket duty or something.
Click to expand...

Again, for the Army guys, 'shakes' does not refer to delirium tremens resulting from the over consumption of Pusser's Rum, but 'waking up the next person on fire watch' - usually by shaking them. I think.

If you need anything else, I'll be spinning dits by the scuttlebutt with the Dog Watch while waiting in line for scran with my yaffling spanners before I thin out to my grot ...
 
daftandbarmy said:
Again, for the Army guys, 'shakes' does not refer to delirium tremens resulting from the over consumption of Pusser's Rum, but 'waking up the next person on fire watch' - usually by shaking them. I think.

If you need anything else, I'll be spinning dits by the scuttlebutt with the Dog Watch while waiting in line for scran with my yaffling spanners before I thin out to my grot ...
Click to expand...
You just put that into ChatGPT, didn’t you.
 
MARS said:
I was on that ship for that deployment. His shakes wouldn't have been in the Night Order's book though - they would be in the Shake Book. The Night Orders book would have had a spot for the oncoming OOW to sign, and I assume he means he didn't see his signature in it for the night watches in question. Perhaps the CO still has his Night Order's books and allowed him to review them?? I suppose that could be done without entering them into evidence?? Dunno. shrug

I know that I still have all omine Night Order's books - they are a great history of exactly where the ship was, what it was doing, and where it was going, each night at sea. Ill be passing mine on to my nephews when I die. So I wouldn't be surprised is Capt Foldesi still has his.

Departmental shakes are a thing for sure, but when it comes to BWKs - there is no Department to shake you since the OOW can't leave the bridge. Someone from the Watch-On-Deck always shook the oncoming OOW in all of my ships.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought, I usually signed the night orders as EO with the other HODs (which I think the NavO generally drafted for the CO who usually wrote it out in fountain pen). There was also the daily departmental rounds in the Ships logs, departmental night orders and one or two others so they blend together. My mind blanked a bit for 'Watch on Deck' but I think that's where it was useful to have 2nd and 3rd OOWs as trainees (or 4th and 5th when you had some NTOs doing their phase 4 OJT)

That must be a really great souvenir to flip back through, and I always liked the tooled leather covers, and goign to give it a go at making one. Sometimes nice just to spend a while on something and have a physical result at the end.
 
daftandbarmy said:
Again, for the Army guys, 'shakes' does not refer to delirium tremens resulting from the over consumption of Pusser's Rum, but 'waking up the next person on fire watch' - usually by shaking them. I think.

If you need anything else, I'll be spinning dits by the scuttlebutt with the Dog Watch while waiting in line for scran with my yaffling spanners before I thin out to my grot ...
Click to expand...
lol, understood that until 'yaffling spanners'. 'Fire watch' was what I thought it was, but kept second guessing myself as that sounds more like a national park ranger job.

No idea how Pusser's Rum got popular; it's terrible (at any price point) but especially for what they charge for it.

As a trainee, they got me so scared of shaking one guy awake that I actually poked him with a broom out of caution. I was new, and they had me convinced if I didn't get out of range as he woke up I might catch a punch, and he had hands the size of shovels. Super nice guy actually, but intimidating as hell at first.

But yeah, usually try whispering their name first, then reaching in to actually shake them. Usually only a single red light in the mess, so dark anyway, and basically pitch black in the racks, so usually used a covered flashlight to make sure you are shaking them on the shoulder or something. There is always that one guy that can't read the map and wanders up and down the rows saying the name out loud and shining the flashlight in everyone's face too, which is why I hated getting bumped into random messes with different departments.
 
daftandbarmy said:
Again, for the Army guys, 'shakes' does not refer to delirium tremens resulting from the over consumption of Pusser's Rum, but 'waking up the next person on fire watch' - usually by shaking them. I think.

If you need anything else, I'll be spinning dits by the scuttlebutt with the Dog Watch while waiting in line for scran with my yaffling spanners before I thin out to my grot ...
Click to expand...
No duff…no kye…pffffft
 
Navy_Pete said:
That's what I thought, I usually signed the night orders as EO with the other HODs (which I think the NavO generally drafted for the CO who usually wrote it out in fountain pen). There was also the daily departmental rounds in the Ships logs, departmental night orders and one or two others so they blend together. My mind blanked a bit for 'Watch on Deck' but I think that's where it was useful to have 2nd and 3rd OOWs as trainees (or 4th and 5th when you had some NTOs doing their phase 4 OJT)

That must be a really great souvenir to flip back through, and I always liked the tooled leather covers, and goign to give it a go at making one. Sometimes nice just to spend a while on something and have a physical result at the end.
Click to expand...
Yeah, on that trip in PRO, the WOD was 1-in-4, * and there was a Spare Hand of the Watch on every watch. I did shakes when I was on spare, as long as it wasn't the Mids and we were dumping gash over the side in open ocean. In that case, I was undoubtedly at the bottom of the giant wet gash dumpster, hauling bags up to whoever was on deck 🤮🤮

Very true about the NavO drafting the Orders. The Boatswains often made the covers for the books - leather punching, sewing and burning was part of my OJPR back then. Likely not anymore though? I dont miss it lol. Nor do I miss making bell ropes,to be honest. Wire splicing was a cool skill though, but I also don't miss it.

That particular trip didn't have any MARS IV students, so they loaded up with Shads, which is how I ended up on that trip and at the bottom of the wet gash dumpster 🙄

It is for sure a great thing to flip through. I have forgotten - sometime purposely lol - some of those nights, particularly the ones where I didnt sleep, and its quite the experience to have those memories come rushing back, unexpectedly...

*the other 3 ships were 1 in 3. Capt(N) Foldesi ordered that we RAS every 3 days, without exception, since it was the Trg Sqn. Fucking hell, the RAS teams on the destroyers looked haggard AF and run off their feet everytime we RAS'd. Poor bastards. We used to hoist a Tim Hortons Flag during RAS stns, and the cooks walked around handing out fresh donuts to everyone during the RAS. I guess we didn't send any to the other ships and someone complained 🤣 and then we hoisted the Petro Canada flag instead.

Last dit - after the Somalia affair and the very brief attempt to pull in Crossing the Line ceremonies into the whole Airborne hazing stuff - the video that circulated for that story on CBC was taken from that trip. IIRC correctly, Larry Murray put that shit to bed double quick. PRO had women embarked, the destroyers did not. Our ceremony was still brutal and inappropriate in a lot of ways - but the stories I heard from the all-male destroyers were shocking. It is a good thing that culture has evolved as much as it has. The destroyers had some sea cadets embarked. The Shellbacks on board did a bang up job scaring the shit out of those kids in the lead up to the big day. So much that one of them hid in an HVAC compartment. And then fell asleep. That ship went to a Bomb Threat posture to search the ship. For hours. And hours. On the Equator. Apparently charges were considered, until it was determined that you couldn't hear the pipes in that space.

Seriously...someone was thinking about charging a fucking CHILD (I have no idea how or even if the NDA could have been applied to them while on board- i can't imagine it did) because he missed the hazing ceremony Because he was terrified.

Go Navy 🙄
 
Navy_Pete said:
But yeah, usually try whispering their name first, then reaching in to actually shake them. Usually only a single red light in the mess, so dark anyway, and basically pitch black in the racks, so usually used a covered flashlight to make sure you are shaking them on the shoulder or something.
Click to expand...
"Dead Men Sleep Aft" is specially designed FOR shakes, at least back in Nelsonian times. Its why - at least in every ship I've ever been in - all the bunks are oriented with the bunklight, and thus the head, pointing forward. So you know where a dude's feet are, and ideally shake (or poke with a broom) there...because yes, dudes waking up swinging is a thing for sure...
 
MARS said:
"Dead Men Sleep Aft" is specially designed FOR shakes, at least back in Nelsonian times. Its why - at least in every ship I've ever been in - all the bunks are oriented with the bunklight, and thus the head, pointing forward. So you know where a dude's feet are, and ideally shake (or poke with a broom) there...because yes, dudes waking up swinging is a thing for sure...
Click to expand...
So, closer contact than hanging at the front desk of the hotel asking the duty manager to phone the room of the missing crew member? 🤔
 
Navy_Pete said:
But yeah, usually try whispering their name first, then reaching in to actually shake them. Usually only a single red light in the mess, so dark anyway, and basically pitch black in the racks, so usually used a covered flashlight to make sure you are shaking them on the shoulder or something. There is always that one guy that can't read the map and wanders up and down the rows saying the name out loud and shining the flashlight in everyone's face too, which is why I hated getting bumped into random messes with different departments.
Click to expand...


The army equivalent is one hour rotations being the awake guy in a ten man arctic tent. Your job is to keep the stove and lantern lit and fueled but also keep everything else not on fire from the couple fires burning inside your tent. At some point during the night, while you’re buried face deep into your fart sac because the lights are literally still on (for heat), someone shines a red Petzl lamp on your face, gently bakes you and says “you’re on piquet!” You are now it for an hour.

A few things are inevitable: the stove and lantern, which are good for a few hours of fuel, will need to be refilled on your shift, probably cause the last guy was an asshole. They must be filled outside. Also, you have to piss and it’s -24. You regret the choices that brought you here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

MilEME09
    • Like
    • Wow
    • Sad
CDS General Eyre announces retirement
7 8 9
Replies
165
Views
50K
GR66
GR66
Kirkhill
    • Like
Multi Domain Task Force - Canada
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
daftandbarmy
daftandbarmy
Blackadder1916
    • Like
    • Insightful
What will medicine on the battlefield look like?
Replies
9
Views
937
KevinB
KevinB
Retired AF Guy
    • Like
Departmental Results Report 2022-2023
Replies
2
Views
8K
daftandbarmy
daftandbarmy
da1root
    • Like
New Group Badge
Replies
0
Views
4K
da1root
da1root
Back
Top