2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Fishbone Jones]

Some of these are already mentioned by PP.

I want to see:

No more money leaving Canada unless we get equal value or a bigger return. Preferably none at all. Sorry world, we're done taking care of you. Time to take care of ourselves first.
If you want a government project or initiative, you need to effectively cost it out first and find something to cut to fund it. No new spending.
Throw foreign actors, especially Red China out of the country. No exchanges, partnerships, grants or otherwise. They have nothing to offer us only what they can take, steal or compromise.
No resources or property for sale or buying unless you're a Canadian citizen. Whether a home, factory, mine or pipeline.
Only allied military allowed. No foreign factories, guarded by the home country military.
All work visas are for 6 months only. Any extention has to be reviewed and renewed.
We need to go all out on nuclear power. All the money we've been putting into solar and windmills goes to developing and producing nuclear power.
No government grants or rebates for EVs. All hookups whether private or retail are to be funded by the user. No government funds. The government doesn't own gas stations or pay to have them built. Nor should the government pay a cent for charging stations.
Blockades of pipelines, railways or roads need to be met with immediate government presence. Either police or military and be prepared for escalating force if necessary. The railway police have the mandate, and a pretty hefty one at that, to protect rail rights of way. They need a heavy and effective riot company that can deploy anywhere in a short period of time.

That's enough for now. I'm sure there's enough for picking apart, disagreement and getting way down into the weeds for general statements.

How would you pay down the debt and hold others to account, without Canada spending more? Let's here your ideas.

 

[lenaitch]

No, however the education system is purposely restricting who can become experts based off political views. They either have to hide their personal beliefs or be denied access to the education required to become a expert.

A simple example being judges at the moment. You have to donate to the Liberal party to be appointed a judge. This means that any judges expert opinion who was appointed in the last decade is automatically politically biased. Not exactly a great way to start what should be a non-political impartial experts stance.

Pretty jaded view. Care to elaborate or quantify? I have a few PhDs, MDs and LLb/Ms in my family and government interference has never been raised. A couple of them I'd be surprised if they have any political view one way or the other.

I find this topic fascinating in that so often on these forums people are told to stay in their lanes and that such and such is a SME and yet it apparently doesnt apply to anything else?

I guess there is a difference between flapping gums on a forum and providing advice that will potentially be acted on.

In order to be recognized as a expert witness in court, the Court has to be satisfied as to your qualifications on the subject you are intending to testify on. In a perfect world, I would like to see something similar in every venue where it matters. Far too many 'experts' are academics who have never held a job outside of the educational system, and/or are 'professional experts' who hang out their consultant shingle and will tailor their expertise to whoever is paying the bill.

I suppose every profession deals with their own, but my favourite is when a Criminology professor passes critical judgement on the actions of a lone copper in the middle of the night.

 

[OldSolduer]

In order to be recognized as a expert witness in court, the Court has to be satisfied as to your qualifications on the subject you are intending to testify on. In a perfect world, I would like to see something similar in every venue where it matters. Far too many 'experts' are academics who have never held a job outside of the educational system, and/or are 'professional experts' who hang out their consultant shingle and will tailor their expertise to whoever is paying the bill.

I suppose every profession deals with their own, but my favourite is when a Criminology professor passes critical judgement on the actions of a lone copper in the middle of the night.

I agree and I hold similar views. We hear them all the time when the WPS does something the professors don't like....all while sipping their tea in an ivory tower.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I'm still waiting for a PM or Leader of the Opposition to claim that they're living in public housing...

Ummmm….they…are…

 

[Good2Golf]

Some answers to smug LPC backbencher thinking she had him…makes munching on apples look like a warm up.

 

[TacticalTea]

Some answers to smug LPC backbencher thinking she had him…makes munching on apples look like a warm up.

Here's an attempt: a set of conspiracy theories aimed at dismantling Western civilization under pretense that it is fundamentally evil due to alleged systemic but intangible discriminations.

Or,

An ideology founded on critical theories which purport that Western civilization in particular is wrought with unjust systemic discrimination and must therefore be dismantled.

The key being, of course, that it doesn't provide for any durable amelioration, only chaos and replacement by even more regressive societies.

 

[dimsum]

Here's an attempt: a set of conspiracy theories aimed at dismantling Western civilization under pretense that it is fundamentally evil due to alleged systemic but intangible discriminations.

Or,

An ideology founded on critical theories which purport that Western civilization in particular is wrought with unjust systemic discrimination and must therefore be dismantled.

The key being, of course, that it doesn't provide for any durable amelioration, only chaos and replacement by even more regressive societies.

There could also be a third - acknowledgement that there was (and still is in some respects) unjust systemic discrimination.

And pushback from some circles about that acknowledgement because it raises uncomfortable questions.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There could also be a third - acknowledgement that there was (and still is in some respects) unjust systemic discrimination.

And pushback from some circles about that acknowledgement because it raises uncomfortable questions.

In my experience, the cure is worse than the disease.

Levelling the playing field is one thing.

Reversing the discrimination seems…counter-productive.

 

[dimsum]

In my experience, the cure is worse than the disease.

Levelling the playing field is one thing.

Reversing the discrimination seems…counter-productive.

Agreed, and like everything else, this is on a scale. I don’t believe that everyone who thinks “being woke” is a good thing is trying to reverse-discriminate. Sometimes that just means to be aware and acknowledge.

 

[Quirky]

Agreed, and like everything else, this is on a scale. I don’t believe that everyone who thinks “being woke” is a good thing is trying to reverse-discriminate. Sometimes that just means to be aware and acknowledge.

Or the woke just want everyone to be miserable, like they are.

Being 'woke' is linked to unhappiness and anxiety, study finds

A study from the University of Turku appears to show that people interested in social justice issues - being 'woke' - may be less happy.

metro.co.uk

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The West, particularly in North America, is unique in it's view that historical injustices can be corrected through deliberate action or the "settling of scores." I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea.

My only concern is that this belief that getting rid of "woke" is a euphemism for dialing back social progress.

I look to my loved ones within the 2SLGBTQIA+ community who are considering going back into the closet because of the attitudes being expressed by the Conservative governments in this country. I worry that "equality" will impede "equity" because of previous biases bubbling to the surface. I wonder how long until "non-woke" means "how life in Canada was between 1954 and 1964 and no further.."

"Woke" is a ridiculous term used by both sides of the argument. Define your motives: are you about creating a truly inclusive society, where people are both protected in their individuality and while not advantaged by it; or are you trying to wedge the population between "us" and "them" (can be said for both right/left wingers).

 

[Remius]

I wonder if in their plans to cut the public sector, that the CPC will look to cutting MP salaries…

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-politicians-pay-increase-1.7160362

2nd highest paid MPs in the world.

 

[TacticalTea]

There could also be a third - acknowledgement that there was (and still is in some respects) unjust systemic discrimination.

And pushback from some circles about that acknowledgement because it raises uncomfortable questions.

Not really.

As Quirky has shown, wokism is much better understood as a disease of the mind than any genuine attempt to improve things.

It's fundamentally based on hatred, envy, and destruction.

Just look at what's going on at McGill. Jews constantly harassed since October because of anti-colonial (racist, anti-white) rhetoric. Look at the 80 churches burned over the past years, on the basis of a total fabrication founded on that same rhetoric. Look at the widening divide in political views between young men and women across the West. Look at the worsening of racial tensions subsequently to Obama's election; more wokism brought MORE not less strife.

No civilization has ever been more inclusive of every demographic, yet if you listen to the wokes you'd think we live in Nazi Germany.

I look to my loved ones within the 2SLGBTQIA+ community who are considering going back into the closet because of the attitudes being expressed by the Conservative governments in this country.

Hm, most gays I know refuse to identify with this alphabet soup and are actually looking forward to the next election. The conservatives aren't the problem, it's the wokes who intentionally stir trouble for no discernible good. Hell, the conservative leader in Québec IS gay.

 

[dimsum]

Or the woke just want everyone to be miserable, like they are.

Being 'woke' is linked to unhappiness and anxiety, study finds

A study from the University of Turku appears to show that people interested in social justice issues - being 'woke' - may be less happy.

metro.co.uk

What did I say about “being on a scale”?

Not really.

As Quirky has shown, wokism is much better understood as a disease of the mind than any genuine attempt to improve things.

Ok hold on - acknowledging that there has been systemic discrimination, which in some respects still persists, is history, not a “disease of the mind”. As I noted above, there is a scale to being woke - not everyone is an extremist, like how I know that not all Conservative supporter is a far-right SoCon. I am a Fiscal Conservative.

It's fundamentally based on hatred, envy, and destruction.

Just look at what's going on at McGill. Jews constantly harassed since October because of anti-colonial (racist, anti-white) rhetoric. Look at the 80 churches burned over the past years, on the basis of a total fabrication founded on that same rhetoric.

Those are two different arguments. One is more “anti-Christianity” with a smattering of anti-colonial rhetoric. But either way, let’s move on from the myth that everything under colonialism (especially in places where the local population were not the same ethnicity as the colonial power) was all roses.

Look at the widening divide in political views between young men and women across the West. Look at the worsening of racial tensions subsequently to Obama's election; more wokism brought MORE not less strife.

I was deployed when Obama won his second term. Let’s just say that me, a visible minority, sitting in a DFAC listening to some of the US military members’ comments, was a bit unsettling and absolutely not surprising when similar thoughts were said out loud during Trumps’ presidency.

No civilization has ever been more inclusive of every demographic, yet if you listen to the wokes you'd think we live in Nazi Germany.

Again with “the wokes”, like it’s a monolithic bloc. Can we acknowledge that on both sides, left and right, the vocal minority are beclowning themselves while the majority think both extremes are morons?

Hm, most gays I know refuse to identify with this alphabet soup and are actually looking forward to the next election. The conservatives aren't the problem, it's the wokes who intentionally stir trouble for no discernible good. Hell, the conservative leader in Québec IS gay.

…and most of the LGBTQ+ community I know do identify. So, does one person’s circle of folks negate another’s?

The Conservative Party in Quebec, as in the provincial party? Provincial parties with the same name don’t necessarily fall in lock-step with the federal version of that party. Look at the CPC and OPC right now.

 

[Furniture]

Agreed, and like everything else, this is on a scale. I don’t believe that everyone who thinks “being woke” is a good thing is trying to reverse-discriminate. Sometimes that just means to be aware and acknowledge.

Umm... the problems and discrimination of the past have been acknowledged, loudly and openly. That isn't enough for the zealots who control the discourse in institutions and mainstream media. They demand more and more, never even allowing for acknowledgement of the fact we live in the most inclusive and accepting society that has ever existed.

The more the zealots push, the more they create people radically opposed to them.

Matt Gurney brought it up in this editorial: Matt Gurney: What I got wrong about Poilievre

“Second,” he continued, “you didn’t pay attention to what’s happening to men. The Canadian media spent years talking about Pierre Poilievre’s problem with women voters. No one seemed to notice Justin Trudeau’s problem with men voters. I have never seen male voters, or any voting bloc, form up so monolithically. And that is happening elsewhere, including in the U.S. Men love Pierre Poilievre so much that there basically aren’t enough women voters left to counteract that,” he quipped. “And that was something you could have seen.” He then added, “And it’s not over. You know what’s happening right now? For generations, French-Canadian men have voted like French-Canadians. Now they’re starting to just resemble other Canadian men. And if that happens, that’s a game-changer. It’s happening at the provincial level, too, but I don’t think Trudeau or other progressives thought through the long-term impact of telling millions of men that they’re privileged, no matter their life circumstances. Right now, millions of those voters are shrugging and saying, ‘Well, okay. Fuck you. Me and my privilege will vote for the other guy.’”

I agree with that. I call that the Cosh Thesis, after something my friend Colby wrote in 2016 — a horrifyingly prescient column, and one that fits with my CPC sources interpretation. Noted!

And the 2016 Colby Cosh link: Colby Cosh: At some point, people will tire of being urged to progress while being told that none has ever happened

Me, I like neoliberalism and globalization and diversity. It is revolutions and their mentality that I loathe. The liberal crusade, though it is essentially right and good, has a flaw in that it does not relent. It does not rest, and will not give ordinary persons a chance to take credit for what were supposed to have been heroic advancements in decency.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Hm, most gays I know refuse to identify with this alphabet soup and are actually looking forward to the next election. The conservatives aren't the problem, it's the wokes who intentionally stir trouble for no discernible good. Hell, the conservative leader in Québec IS gay.

I would offer that, like any group of people, marginalization is felt less by some based on how closely they can blend into the dominant group.

The experiences of a white, cis-homosexual, male would vary entirely than say a BIPOC, trans-heterosexual woman. That is why the Rainbow Umbrella can be so fractured at times (i.e. Should police be welcomed at Pride events? Depends who you ask and it usually stems from where in the community your experiences with police are had...).

My beliefs are that "wokeism" has been a wedge of a larger issue: what does equality look like?

-Some believe it to be a true egalitarian society where the pieces are set, everyone plays the same game, and you win or lose based on the outcomes.

Or

-Equality is identifying the parts of society that are very much not equal and modifying the systems and "game" so that its accomodating to those who start it with a deficit.

My wife's need to use a wheel chair isn't her being "woke," but an identifiable need to be accomodated. There are still buildings in town that she cannot access because they're "heritage" and cannot be modified. So because "its just the way things have always been" means that someone in our society cannot have equal access. Now imagine that in a white, hetero-normative, Christian society. Its not stating that "well we need to have to tear down every building and start fresh? That's ludicrous!" No. Its identifying there is a need to allow modifications to enable equality of access for everyone. Even groups you don't necessarily think deserve to exist. Otherwise its eugenics and social regression to the 1930s.

Trans folks exist and we need to accomodate for that. Neurodivergent folks exist (I am one) and we need to accomodate for that. Indigenous Canadians have a slew of socio-economic issues that have been foisted upon them by our desire to "help" them... and that too needs to be accomodated for in our society.

None of this means we favour one group for the other, but it definitely means we are cognizant of the amount of folks that need a "ramp" in society. The fact that someone who uses a cane can get up the stairs just fine doesn't mean the building is accessible.

Its great that the leader of the Conservatives in Québec is a gay man; does not mean his struggles are the same for everyone in the community.

Its like me saying morale is fine, from the Officer's Mess, while the troops are chowing down on a hotdog in a leaky mod tent.

 

[dimsum]

Umm... the problems and discrimination of the past have been acknowledged, loudly and openly. That isn't enough for the zealots who control the discourse in institutions and mainstream media. They demand more and more, never even allowing for acknowledgement of the fact we live in the most inclusive and accepting society that has ever existed.

The more the zealots push, the more they create people radically opposed to them.

Matt Gurney brought it up in this editorial: Matt Gurney: What I got wrong about Poilievre


And the 2016 Colby Cosh link: Colby Cosh: At some point, people will tire of being urged to progress while being told that none has ever happened

The fact that there are still neo-Nazis, Holocaust deniers, and Charlottesville 2017 would suggest that we’ve regressed.

“Nazis (as in the actual party) are bad” shouldn’t be a controversial statement.

 

[Furniture]

The fact that there are still neo-Nazis, Holocaust deniers, and Charlottesville 2017 would suggest that we’ve regressed.

“Nazis (as in the actual party) are bad” shouldn’t be a controversial statement.

Ok, so a few fringe weirdos are a sign that all of society is terrible. Did you actually read what I posted, or jump straight to the "he doesn't agree with me, so he must side with literal Nazis" conclusion?

 

[dimsum]

Ok, so a few fringe weirdos are a sign that all of society is terrible. Did you actually read what I posted, or jump straight to the "he doesn't agree with me, so he must side with literal Nazis" conclusion?

Where did I say that “all of society is terrible”? I said that the events above meant that no, not all of the discrimination of that past has been openly acknowledged.

In the same vein, would you then say that the “woke zealots” are just fringe weirdos as well, and “the left” or whatever shouldn’t be all seen through that lens?

ETA: For context, I am a visible minority. I see how discrimination has affected my community (not me specifically) in the past. Am I militant about it? No, because I’m part of the majority that is just getting on trying to do what I can for the wider community. Am I concerned about rising anti-[my community] sentiment? Hell yeah.

The past 10 years has given voice to folks who would normally be saying those comments in hushed tones lest they are ostracized. In the case I’m specifically talking about, those comments are coming from the far-right. I’d normally understand if some folks say “oh it’s not that bad” but from personal and pretty-close-to-personal experience during the Ottawa convoy, yeah it’s that bad.

 

[Furniture]

Where did I say that “all of society is terrible”? I said that the events above meant that no, not all of the discrimination of that past has been openly acknowledged.

In the same vein, would you then say that the “woke zealots” are just fringe weirdos as well, and “the left” or whatever shouldn’t be all seen through that lens?

I agree that they are a fringe, but as I said earlier, they control the narrative in institutions and legacy media.

You are not allowed to question anything that they propose, or you will be labelled as some sort of "ist/phobe", with no way to defend yourself. The accusation is the unfalsifiable, as there is no way to definitively prove you aren't what you have been accused of. Once the accusation is made, and you happen to be from a "privileged" class, you suffer social and professional harm. No proof required, just a different opinion.

I agree that changes needed to be made, and broadly they have been made. There are always going to be things that can improve, but there also needs to be an acknowledgement that things will never be perfect. Some prejudices will never die out completely, and some things will require generations to die-off before they are gone.

Edit: Can we also take a moment to recognize that you brought up literal Nazis as a counterpoint to my post. It's kind of a perfect example of why things go off the rails so quickly. My post was a "maybe we should take a moment to recognize that things are actually pretty good, even if they can be better" and you went straight to Nazi.