Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[dimsum]

That would mean less Career Managers and pointless postings which kill spousal careers and family stability. Moving around the country needlessly for "experience" is what the CAF is all about!

There are Reserve CMs. NAVRES had (has?) them.

Regarding moving, that is an issue with how our squadrons/bases are spread out, which is due to our geographic location and priorities. You want the RCAF to not post most people? Move every base of a fleet, including schools, into one place. All Transport in Trenton. All fighters in Cold Lake. All LRP in Greenwood. All Maritime Helicopters in Shearwater. All Tac Hel in Gagetown.

The fallout is while there are fewer postings east/west, folks still get posted to staff jobs in Ottawa/Winnipeg, and tons more domestic TD. Due to NORAD commitments, the fighter folks would probably still end up spending 6 months a year in Bagotville to fill that out, the LRP folks would have TD deployments to Comox, and the SAR folks would essentially be TD’d to places other than their home base.

So the choice is either moving your family every 3-4 years, or keeping your family in one place but being gone for 6 months a year. What is worse in the long run?

 

[Halifax Tar]

There are Reserve CMs. NAVRES had (has?) them.

Regarding moving, that is an issue with how our squadrons/bases are spread out, which is due to our geographic location and priorities. You want the RCAF to not post most people? Move every base of a fleet, including schools, into one place. All Transport in Trenton. All fighters in Cold Lake. All LRP in Greenwood. All Maritime Helicopters in Shearwater. All Tac Hel in Gagetown.

The fallout is while there are fewer postings east/west, folks still get posted to staff jobs in Ottawa/Winnipeg, and tons more domestic TD. Due to NORAD commitments, the fighter folks would probably still end up spending 6 months a year in Bagotville to fill that out, the LRP folks would have TD deployments to Comox, and the SAR folks would essentially be TD’d to places other than their home base.

So the choice is either moving your family every 3-4 years, or keeping your family in one place but being gone for 6 months a year. What is worse in the long run?

Why not just have people spend their careers on one fleet ? Think of it like a Home Port Division like the RCN has.

 

[daftandbarmy]

So the choice is either moving your family every 3-4 years, or keeping your family in one place but being gone for 6 months a year. What is worse in the long run?

Losing a war

 

[dimsum]

Why not just have people spend their careers on one fleet ? Think of it like a Home Port Division like the RCN has.

The vast majority do. Re-training folks on different airframes takes too long.

The thing is that the fleet is usually spread out between 2 or more locations. Most are “east coast / west coast” like the fighters, Auroras or Maritime Helicopters, but Tac Hel is all over the place (minus Chinooks). Also, folks need to be posted to Winnipeg/Prairies to become basic aircrew instructors for pilots, ACSOs, and AES Ops.

 

[Furniture]

Why not just have people spend their careers on one fleet ? Think of it like a Home Port Division like the RCN has.

That's his point, the fleets are spread out.

LRP- Comox and Greenwood
TacHel- Edmonton, Petawawa, Valcartier, and Gagetown with rest Sqns in Borden and St-Hubert
Fighters- Cold Lake and Bagotville
SAR- Comox, Winnipeg, Trenton, and Greenwood
Transport- Yellowknife, Winnipeg, and Trenton

Then throw in the fact that someone has to do the HQ jobs in places like Winnipeg, North Bay, and Ottawa, and there are a lot of moves.

 

[Remius]

They do. The worlds economy runs on ships at sea. Our (NATOs) ability fight any conflict will depend on ruling the North Atlantic, just like WW2. Any fight in Asia with China will be a Naval and Air war and any ground forces will depend on secure sea lanes to fight.

You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but Canada could provide more by being a bigger player at sea than anything we could do on land.

I also really like getting Army guys all wound up.

I’m an army guy and I actually agree with you.

 

[Quirky]

So the choice is either moving your family every 3-4 years, or keeping your family in one place but being gone for 6 months a year. What is worse in the long run?

People tired of both and leaving the CAF, which is the current situation.

 

[Furniture]

People tired of both and leaving the CAF, which is the current situation.

I'm guessing people would have far less of an issue with both of those things if the CAF handled them better.

I still haven't been told where I'm posted this summer... I know I'm posted, I just don't know where. When I was a 21 year old Pte it wasn't so annoying, as a 41 year old PO 1 it's infuriating. I mean, I know where I'm 90% likely to go, but I haven't been told that by anyone in the CoC, I just pieced it together because it's a combination of where I least want to go, and the easiest option for the CAF.

Canada isn't going to become physically smaller, so the CAF/GoC should be doing everything in their power to make moving people around the country less shitty. They have taken the opposite approach though, and seem to try to make it worse every year.

Before people chime in with "don't move people at all", that might work in some occupations, but it doesn't for many support occupations. If you have small sections on many bases, you have move people around.

 

[dimsum]

People tired of both and leaving the CAF, which is the current situation.

OK, so what is the 3rd COA?

We can’t magically make Canada smaller, and assuming that Canadians want SAR capability within 20 days of the call, we can’t move everyone into one place and then not send them out on TDs.

 

[Remius]

I’m going to sound like I’m beating a dead horse. Create real incentives and bonuses to go places and be posted.

 

[Furniture]

I’m going to sound like I’m beating a dead horse. Create real incentives and bonuses to go places and be posted.

Also, create consequences for taking those incentivized postings then not doing your job upon arrival.

Lots of people in my occupation wanted Esquimalt for the location, then magically became unfit sea as soon as they arrived... So two to four people would do all the work, and the rest would collect PLD and enjoy the February cherry blossoms.

 

[YZT580]

People tired of both and leaving the CAF, which is the current situation.

from an outsiders point of view: There are lots of civilians living in all the towns and cities associated with the military that like living in those cities so it isn't the location. It also isn't the job per se. It pays reasonably well, has good benefits in comparison to many positions elsewhere, and has the potential for actually feeling good about what you do. But when your employer nickel and dimes you, treats you as a second-class citizen, takes you away from your family for months on end and then goes cheap on things like child-care and ensuring families are able to get together on a regular basis when you are posted out, provides you with second-rate or obsolete tools and then expects you to accomplish miracles there is no reason to give him any more time than is absolutely necessary to gain the skills needed to move back out of uniform. Treat your people with respect, give them the tools that they need and most importantly, work on keeping families together and maybe your attrition rate will go back down

 

[Quirky]

But when your employer nickel and dimes you, treats you as a second-class citizen, takes you away from your family for months on end and then goes cheap on things like child-care and ensuring families are able to get together on a regular basis when you are posted out, provides you with second-rate or obsolete tools and then expects you to accomplish miracles there is no reason to give him any more time than is absolutely necessary to gain the skills needed to move back out of uniform. Treat your people with respect, give them the tools that they need and most importantly, work on keeping families together and maybe your attrition rate will go back down

The CAF won't be a preferred employer, for a number of reasons, without the all-in support and buy in from the government. Things like bonuses and posting incentives are nice, however you can't just get a cheque cut from the OR.

Also, create consequences for taking those incentivized postings then not doing your job upon arrival.

There are no consequences period, for not doing your job. The CAF really needs to make it easier to can people, not offer them another trade, but fire them.

 

[dapaterson]

There are no consequences period, for not doing your job. The CAF really needs to make it easier to can people, not offer them another trade, but fire them.

In the case of some allowances, intended to incentivize behaviours, failed "leaders" refuse to enforce the policies and permit members to be paid money they are not entitled to.

Perhaps it's time to eliminate SDA, LDA and the rest, and move exclusively to paying them for time at sea / time in the field... no more bonus money based on an annotation to a position.

 

[markppcli]

from an outsiders point of view: There are lots of civilians living in all the towns and cities associated with the military that like living in those cities so it isn't the location.

Big difference between growing up in Cold Lake vs being moved there.


Fundamentally the CAF, and specifically the CA, is not effecient. We need to integrate the reserves, cut down our HQs, trim admin processes, and reorganize our training system to stop wasting both time and money. The amount of man hours we waste in PAT and BTL is frankly absurd. I won’t ever get past the girl I know from my old Rugby Club who’s presently waiting four months in Meaford for DP1. On an initial 3 year contract we’ll spend 11 percent of her wages on precisely fuck all output. To say nothing of the cost of moving the member from Edmonton -> Montreal -> Meaford -> Posting. This happens to hundreds of our new members annually, and frankly we can’t afford it.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Why not just have people spend their careers on one fleet ? Think of it like a Home Port Division like the RCN has.

Why even have two separate fleets? There is zero reason administratively for this, especially for a Navy with such little capability.

Big difference between growing up in Cold Lake vs being moved there.


Fundamentally the CAF, and specifically the CA, is not effecient. We need to integrate the reserves, cut down our HQs, trim admin processes, and reorganize our training system to stop wasting both time and money. The amount of man hours we waste in PAT and BTL is frankly absurd. I won’t ever get past the girl I know from my old Rugby Club who’s presently waiting four months in Meaford for DP1. On an initial 3 year contract we’ll spend 11 percent of her wages on precisely fuck all output. To say nothing of the cost of moving the member from Edmonton -> Montreal -> Meaford -> Posting. This happens to hundreds of our new members annually, and frankly we can’t afford it.

So you like my idea of deep cuts

 

[dimsum]

Why even have two separate fleets? There is zero reason administratively for this, especially for a Navy with such little capability.

I have a few facetious answers, but I would like to know how the cost breakdown for transiting and semi-permanently stationing a ship to the Indo-Pacific AOR would compare with having folks/ships permanently based there.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I have a few facetious answers, but I would like to know how the cost breakdown for transiting and semi-permanently stationing a ship to the Indo-Pacific AOR would compare with having folks/ships permanently based there.

Yes, I do as well...

RCN playing with their notional "fleet"

 

[OldSolduer]

Yes, I do as well...

RCN playing with their notional "fleet"

I certainly didn’t expect that

 

[markppcli]

Why even have two separate fleets? There is zero reason administratively for this, especially for a Navy with such little capability.

So you like my idea of deep cuts

No, I think we need to re organize what we have.

Less HQs so those people can go to work in our emoth procurement system and schools.

Integrate reserves in the artillery to generate a renewed fires capability through adding firing batteries to each regiment.

Build more maneuver units through blending reserves and regs (don’t care about the ratio) and build up to 4-5 brigades. That gives us two divisions that can actuall command soldiers.

Get rid of CJOC and have the Fleets, Wings, and Divisions (2 at max) as the force employers.

If we have a surplus of people after all that, offer a severance package. I don’t pretend to know anything about the Navy, so I won’t speak to their issues. I suspect they need to stop pretending they can run the amount of ships they have until equipment and pers problems are addressed. That being said I think we need the amount of ships we have as a minimum, and cutting numbers isn’t going to help maintaining crews.