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C3 Howitzer Replacement

Towed guns are of limited utility against a top tier enemy, regardless of the crew size or calibre.
But you can kick them out of a plane, or insert them with a Helo easily.
They have a role still. Not as large as one as they did pre 1950, but they still exist.

Edit: @FJAG greta minds and all… ;)

Second point, top tier enemy is a bit of a misnomer, as even most third rate enemies have MLRS of some sort…
 
But they can offer depth to your artillery park without breaking the bank. I will take SPG, MRLS, !55 and 105mm towed along with 120mm mortars.
The artillery park, and its depth, is only valuable if it has an operational output. I don’t hate the idea of 105s, L118 or no, because I can see value in it as a towed gun for light use, with reserve Bty’s ideally. But having guns for the sake of guns is silly.
 
I have trained up a functioning gun crew out of SYEP recruits in 5 days. It's actually not hard to man the guns. The harder part is the FOO and gun techs. So if you have the guns and the ammo stocks, you can increase the size of your artillery very quickly.
 
The artillery park, and its depth, is only valuable if it has an operational output. I don’t hate the idea of 105s, L118 or no, because I can see value in it as a towed gun for light use, with reserve Bty’s ideally. But having guns for the sake of guns is silly.
Here's the arc of my revision for "Unsustainable at any Price". Canada needs two armies: an Army for Today and an Army for Tomorrow (Not "of" but "for"). The BLUF is that the Army for Today is primarily RegF and volunteer reservists equipped and trained to do the things we do now - every day. There is very little need for armour or artillery in that force with the exception of the elements we decide we need in Latvia for direct deterrence.

The Army for Tomorrow is the expansion army for when we have to muck in because we no longer have a choice to whimp out and stay home and which we need for indirect deterrence. It's mostly a ResF army with a strong RegF leadership core BUT, it's organized, equipped and trained to do the high end stuff because Rumsfeld was right - you go to war with what you have not what you wish you had. And if that includes TAPVs and old TLAVs and Bisons, 30-year old Leo 2A4s, MSVS MILCOTS and even C3 howitzers than that's what it will be with the realization we're going to take a whupping.

We've been ignoring the Army for Tomorrow for many decades on the hope that we'll never need it. If history teaches us anything it's that "hope is not a COA". At some point the army is going to need to take its head out of it's ass and come to the realization that it needs to deal with it and come up with a doctrine that allows the Army for Tomorrow to be built, slowly and rationally into a viable deterrent force.

I have trained up a functioning gun crew out of SYEP recruits in 5 days. It's actually not hard to man the guns. The harder part is the FOO and gun techs. So if you have the guns and the ammo stocks, you can increase the size of your artillery very quickly.
You don't have to tell me how easy it is. I'm the young gunner who joined in August and that November, before I even had a recruit course much less a gun number's course, was made the number 3 on a C1 howitzer in Shilo, recording and laying the gun for bearing with my instruction running from 0500 to 0900 the first morning and my first live round leaving the muzzle shortly thereafter. Most of us in the battery had spent the winter and spring on Saturday mornings doing dry deployments on the CNE grounds and at Cherry beach so that we could shoot at Meaford that spring and do a summer concentration before our recruit course. It wasn't rocket science. Back in 2006, the conversion course from 105mm to M777 was five days dry, three days live which drilled in the essentials.

The big point that we gloss over is that in order to do that you need the equipment.

A Bty for TF ORION had no M777s for predeployment training until hat eight day conversion course in December 2005. That's is all they had before predeployment leave and getting on the plane to Afghanistan in February. E Bty for TF 3-06 had two guns that they had to share between two troops for training and which also had to be used by the tech team that was developing and installing the digital gun management systems. D Bty for TF 1-07 had to field six guns in Afghanistan but for the majority of their predeployment training only had two, at most, available.

Training can be done in short times if you have some people with a modicum of training but most importantly, you have to have the equipment or forget about it. I won't even bore you with the story of fielding Sperwer, ARTHUR, miniUAVs and LCMRs... and don't get me started about how we got all the gear and training to turn our fledgling FACs into highly capable JTACs. Almost all of these are stories of institutional lethargy saved by highly talented and dedicated people in the field (and DLR) making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Once again: Rumsfeld is right.

🍻
 
A Bty for TF ORION had no M777s for predeployment training until hat eight day conversion course in December 2005. That's is all they had before predeployment leave and getting on the plane to Afghanistan in February. E Bty for TF 3-06 had two guns that they had to share between two troops for training and which also had to be used by the tech team that was developing and installing the digital gun management systems. D Bty for TF 1-07 had to field six guns in Afghanistan but for the majority of their predeployment training only had two, at most, available.
We also did that with a solid core of people who hade a decade+ of experience on guns putting rounds down range. The CAF of today isn't the CAF of 2004-2007, we don't have the depth of experience we once did.

It might be hard to see from the outside, but the experience level at each rank is dropping, and with that a lot of the "make it happen" stuff we got away with doesn't work as well anymore.
 
:ROFLMAO:

You're still light. I figure a two gun troop needs 35 to 45 minimum and that's not counting FOOs, FSCCs, ASCCs, STACCs, RCPOs, Sig Troops and a whole slew of logisticians of all sorts.

;)
I bow.
 
We also did that with a solid core of people who hade a decade+ of experience on guns putting rounds down range. The CAF of today isn't the CAF of 2004-2007, we don't have the depth of experience we once did.
And that was after a Decade of Darkness and more than a decade post the closure of CFE.
It might be hard to see from the outside, but the experience level at each rank is dropping, and with that a lot of the "make it happen" stuff we got away with doesn't work as well anymore.
:cry:
 
And that was after a Decade of Darkness and more than a decade post the closure of CFE.

:cry:
The '90s FRP is hitting us hard, at 22 years in I'm one of the most experienced people in my occupation. Behind me we have even less experience, as the Afghanistan folks tended to drop after the deployments ended.

I'm sure other occupations are different, but I suspect they aren't that different.
 
The '90s FRP is hitting us hard, at 22 years in I'm one of the most experienced people in my occupation. Behind me we have even less experience, as the Afghanistan folks tended to drop after the deployments ended.

I'm sure other occupations are different, but I suspect they aren't that different.

As I recall, the Infantry had a high % of turnover in a fairly short period of time.

Welcome to the age of the 2 year MCpl! ;)
 
The '90s FRP is hitting us hard, at 22 years in I'm one of the most experienced people in my occupation. Behind me we have even less experience, as the Afghanistan folks tended to drop after the deployments ended.

I'm sure other occupations are different, but I suspect they aren't that different.
I can imagine. I went through the 1970 slaughter that cut the artillery in half and then had the pleasure of watching the first rebuilding of AD. It took over a decade and a billion to rebuild it.

This time there are less old salts out there and the effort is a pricey but weak one which means a career stream that's going to be difficult to maintain. STA went through the same problem and now the arty will have to deal with three distinct career streams and numerous specialties within a relatively small trade. These force and capability reductions and recreations create decades' long ripples.

🍻
 
I have trained up a functioning gun crew out of SYEP recruits in 5 days. It's actually not hard to man the guns. The harder part is the FOO and gun techs. So if you have the guns and the ammo stocks, you can increase the size of your artillery very quickly.
As we’re seeing in Ukraine, we don’t have the industrial capacity to build “operational” guns quickly. The idea that well rapidly replace training systems with operational ones isn’t a viable plan. In fact it’s never been a viable plan, it’s just something we said to keep costs down.
 
The '90s FRP is hitting us hard, at 22 years in I'm one of the most experienced people in my occupation. Behind me we have even less experience, as the Afghanistan folks tended to drop after the deployments ended.

I'm sure other occupations are different, but I suspect they aren't that different.

There is a big experience gap PAN CAF.

As we’re seeing in Ukraine, we don’t have the industrial capacity to build “operational” guns quickly. The idea that well rapidly replace training systems with operational ones isn’t a viable plan. In fact it’s never been a viable plan, it’s just something we said to keep costs down.

The T34 v Tiger... What can we mass produce ? Its not the high tech expensive stuff that will get chewed up fast. @FJAG do you remember how to run the 25 pdr guns ? Ya ? Don't go to far ;)
 
There is a big experience gap PAN CAF.



The T34 v Tiger... What can we mass produce ? Its not the high tech expensive stuff that will get chewed up fast. @FJAG do you remember how to run the 25 pdr guns ? Ya ? Don't go to far ;)
:ROFLMAO: When I was a young pup in 7th Tor RCA, we had a working 25 pdr in the gun park and unofficially "played" around with it. In a pinch I could operate one but the 105mm M2A21 was my first operational gun. Additional fun fact - I'm one of the few people left in the world who knows how to use an arty board for calculating firing data and how to "tune" and use a 42 set as a radio. Also, I did my combat team commanders' course using Centurions.

:ROFLMAO:
 
:ROFLMAO: When I was a young pup in 7thTor RCA, we had a working 25 pdr in the gun park and unofficially "played" around with it. In a pinch I could operate one but the 105mm M2A21 was my first operational gun. Additional fun fact - I'm one of the few people left in the world who knows how to use an arty board for calculating firing data and how to "tune" and use a 42 set as a radio. Also, I did my combat team commanders' course using Centurions.

:ROFLMAO:

That IS a long time ago ;)

rome GIF
 
:ROFLMAO: When I was a young pup in 7th Tor RCA, we had a working 25 pdr in the gun park and unofficially "played" around with it. In a pinch I could operate one but the 105mm M2A21 was my first operational gun. Additional fun fact - I'm one of the few people left in the world who knows how to use an arty board for calculating firing data and how to "tune" and use a 42 set as a radio. Also, I did my combat team commanders' course using Centurions.

:ROFLMAO:
I vaguely remember tuning a 42 set on radio watch. Watched the Arty RSS WO beat the new kids with their fancy HP14 calculators with hist Arty Board, threw a M36 grenade and fired a 3.5" RL. Also was "Gun crew" on the 14.5mm arty simulator and was under the puff table operating the "puffer" as they trained new techs. Not as old as you, but have earned some of my silver hair. :giggle:
 
As we’re seeing in Ukraine, we don’t have the industrial capacity to build “operational” guns quickly. The idea that well rapidly replace training systems with operational ones isn’t a viable plan. In fact it’s never been a viable plan, it’s just something we said to keep costs down.
I don't see the M119 as a training gun. I see it as a gun that is good for training, but still viable on many battlefields. Make sure the M119 and the M777 have exactly the same FCS. You can also use the domestically produced 4x4 wheeled armoured vehicles as gun tractors for them. The M777 requires a large gun tractor with hiab crane to be effective, along with hiab crane equipped ammunition vehicles. While it's nice to have a hiab crane with the 105 ammunition, it's not as critical. Having both size of guns and 120mm mortars allows you to equip any force with the appropriate fire support. I will also advocate for the Regular force to go mainly with some form of SPG and MRLS. Some Reserve arty units get the M777 if they are close to a base and range. The ones far away get the M119's and or 120mm mortars.
 
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