• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Current Dress Regs

Thread rival... The Regs are changing again. Seen some emails at work and now some PP pages.

I would say a slight walk back from the wild west we've become.
Called it from day one. The revisions I have seen are all reasonable and make sense. IMHO, they are truly in the spirit of what the original amendments were trying to achieve.

I hope this is a walk towards common sense again within the CAF IRT Dress and Deportment
 
This is just a result of being unable to trust people to dress line grown ups
Hardly.

We don't employ "grown ups," we employ soldiers, sailors, and aircrew (I refuse to use the term "aviator") in the Profession of Arms. Those in the Profession of Arms follow orders given, and they need to be clear and precise; not open to interpretation.

We give clear direction and guidance via orders/policy so that we don't have to waste time clarifying. That's on everything from pay and benefits, eqpt maintenance, material accountability, training safety, operating weaponry, tactics, drill & ceremonial, and yes... dress and deportment.

The Dress Reg changes that occured failed the clear direction and guidance part by a wide margin. They were written in such a vague manner that troops were taking miles with the inch given and NCOs were reluctant to enforce what they weren't clear on. Hence why you saw the bufoonery that made use all lose credibilty with our allies, our veterans, and our citizenry.

Like anything, if you give piss poor D&G, you don't get to be annoyed down theline when it misses the mark. Going back and having to say "well... not like that..." has you ending up looking like an ass. In this case, its well deserved.

The walking back that has been suggested should have been the chosen COA in 2022; but instead we got a weak, vague, and ridiculous "standard" because no one wanted to give clear arcs.

In my experience, the only time I have had to deal with adverse situations as a leader is when I decided against my better judgment to "treat people like grown ups." In everyone one of those cases, I had more ass pain cleaning up the mess than if I had just taken the time to spell it out.
 
Hardly.

We don't employ "grown ups," we employ soldiers, sailors, and aircrew (I refuse to use the term "aviator") in the Profession of Arms. Those in the Profession of Arms follow orders given, and they need to be clear and precise; not open to interpretation.

Most of whom are legal age to vote, drink, get married, drive… how are they not “grown ups”?

We give clear direction and guidance via orders/policy so that we don't have to waste time clarifying. That's on everything from pay and benefits, eqpt maintenance, material accountability, training safety, operating weaponry, tactics, drill & ceremonial, and yes... dress and deportment.

The Dress Reg changes that occured failed the clear direction and guidance part by a wide margin. They were written in such a vague manner that troops were taking miles with the inch given and NCOs were reluctant to enforce what they weren't clear on. Hence why you saw the bufoonery that made use all lose credibilty with our allies, our veterans, and our citizenry.

Like anything, if you give piss poor D&G, you don't get to be annoyed down theline when it misses the mark. Going back and having to say "well... not like that..." has you ending up looking like an ass. In this case, its well deserved.

The walking back that has been suggested should have been the chosen COA in 2022; but instead we got a weak, vague, and ridiculous "standard" because no one wanted to give clear arcs.

In my experience, the only time I have had to deal with adverse situations as a leader is when I decided against my better judgment to "treat people like grown ups." In everyone one of those cases, I had more ass pain cleaning up the mess than if I had just taken the time to spell it out.
Well actually we did give guidance - maintain a professional appearance. The reality is members took that to the absolute limit and the direction wasn’t enough to be able to reel in those that couldn’t understand it.

Your final paragraph is just exactly my point. We have guidance on the assumption people would be grown ups… it failed. Actually my your entire post is just agreeing with what I said.
 
FWIW that is why every morning parade the PL WO or Sect Comds need to have a look at their troops, and provide guidance and direction as necessary.
ADDING: Remember that the Sect Comds in a rifle coy are dealing with very junior soldiers for the most part and they need the guidance
 
Last edited:
In my experience, the only time I have had to deal with adverse situations as a leader is when I decided against my better judgment to "treat people like grown ups." In everyone one of those cases, I had more ass pain cleaning up the mess than if I had just taken the time to spell it out.
You must be fun to work for/with…

You feel the need to micromanage every aspect of your subs’ professional life? How’s innovation in your lines?

Direction and orders often leave grey areas on purpose to give that flexibility to local commanders to adapt given their situation. That is actually something we absolutely want to ensure mission command is actually effective. If anything, our orders inhibit mission command as authority is kept at the highest levels for often trivial issues.
 
Change back everything, but let us grow beards as long as is practical.
 
Most of whom are legal age to vote, drink, get married, drive… how are they not “grown ups”?
A "grown up" is not a soldier and has not been indoctrinated, trained, and entrusted to commit violence in the name of the King. We have processes to turn "grown ups" into those soldiers, and thus we must treat them differently.

Even being of legal age to vote, drink, drive, and reproduce; a large amount of those "grown up" fuck it up on the regular.

Well actually we did give guidance - maintain a professional appearance. The reality is members took that to the absolute limit and the direction wasn’t enough to be able to reel in those that couldn’t understand it.
That was, as stated in my response, piss poor and weak guidance.

"Professional appearance" relative to what? To whom? My civilian white collar IT Manager equivalent or the Cyber Security gremlin rolling out of bed in sweats and a neck beard?

It's not folks taking it to the absolute limit when there was no clear direction of what that "Professional Appearance" was in relation to the Profession of Arms.

Your final paragraph is just exactly my point. We have guidance on the assumption people would be grown ups… it failed. Actually my your entire post is just agreeing with what I said.
I think we are very closely overlapped ven diagrams. The original reg amendments were junk, it was wide open to interpretation, and we as the CAF missed the mark.

My ire is not with Cpl McFuckface for not knowing better, but with Col McFuckface at CMP for lazy staff work that became weak policy.

I think that is where we differ.
 
And the little tiff between Supersonic max and OldSoldier is a perfect demonstration of the differences between Army and Air Force.

One element requires that the soldiers trust their officer to do right by them, the other one that the officer trust that the enlisted crew do right by them.

Just saying.

P.S.: The Navy somehow fits in the middle: everybody has to trust that everybody else does right by them.
 
You must be fun to work for/with…
No complaints in 17 years as both NCM and Officer. In fact my troops are sad to see me posted this APS. Thanks for asking.

You feel the need to micromanage every aspect of your subs’ professional life?
Only the aspects that need clear boundaries. Do I give a shit if Bloggins does PT at 0730 or 1430? Absolutely not. Do I enforce proper safety around electricity and RF? You betcha. Do I ensure their pers admin and staff work is done right the first time? Always.

I am here to be a leader and act as such. That means being consistent, fair, and clear on what my expectations are. My intent is just that, a roadmap. I tell folks where I want them to go, not how to get there.

Why? Because it matters greatly when things are chaotic. Knowing what "right" looks like is more important than "Steps One through Eighteen to achieve Right."

How’s innovation in your lines?
Fantastic actually. We have dealt with monumental changes to our doctrine, systems, and force structures and most of it was from the ground up. Like I said above, a left and right of arc is not micromanaging or stifling innovation if you set clear goals and direction.

Direction and orders often leave grey areas on purpose to give that flexibility to local commanders to adapt given their situation.
So a policy that is meant wholly to provide a standard of uniformity in appearance should have grey areas? That worked out well in achieving the Commander's Intent thus far.

Even in orders and policy there are Constraints, Limitations, and Restriants to the situation that prevent interpretation on the ground devolving into anarchy.

That is actually something we absolutely want to ensure mission command is actually effective. If anything, our orders inhibit mission command as authority is kept at the highest levels for often trivial issues.
Mission Command is achieved through clear intent and trust in subordinates to achieve that intent. They must act in a way conducive and in harmony with that intent for MC to work.

Trivial issues are not trivial when there are follow on effects that can jeopardize strategic efforts. Dress and deportment is one of those. Our international partners have actually refused working with Canadians that went off the deep end with the regs (Iraq and Poland being two I know of personally). We almost had 3 R 22e R sent home from JRTC in Louisiana because the Americans needed to be talked down off the ledge on their appearance.

You may think me a shrewd and petty subaltern for putting effort into spit and polish, but it is a reflection of every other aspect of my job. Comms are either up or they're down. There is no inbetween. I work hard with my team to make sure they have what they need to get the message passed and that is making sure every detail is addressed and every bleep is blooped in the process.

That is reinforced by maintaining a proper appearance in uniform and that is also for their safety. Its why I check for piercings, rings, watches, metal hair clips, and dog tags before we start the day. Those items are hazards when we start working with high voltage. Does it make me a prick? Maybe. But I sure a shit haven't had a RadHaz or Electrocution incident in my tenure.

I will keep my corner of the CAF as neat and tidy as I can, you can keep yours as such. If that makes me a buzzkill because I am clear with my expectations, so be it.
 
And the little tiff between Supersonic max and OldSoldier is a perfect demonstration of the differences between Army and Air Force.

One element requires that the soldiers trust their officer to do right by them, the other one that the officer trust that the enlisted crew do right by them.

Just saying.

P.S.: The Navy somehow fits in the middle: everybody has to trust that everybody else does right by them.
What tiff?

Anyways on SLC we took the span of management thing and we discussed it. Basically if you have well trained soldiers you can manage/lead more than you can if you have untrained/young/inexperienced soldiers.
 
No complaints in 17 years as both NCM and Officer. In fact my troops are sad to see me posted this APS. Thanks for asking.


Only the aspects that need clear boundaries. Do I give a shit if Bloggins does PT at 0730 or 1430? Absolutely not. Do I enforce proper safety around electricity and RF? You betcha. Do I ensure their pers admin and staff work is done right the first time? Always.

I am here to be a leader and act as such. That means being consistent, fair, and clear on what my expectations are. My intent is just that, a roadmap. I tell folks where I want them to go, not how to get there.

Why? Because it matters greatly when things are chaotic. Knowing what "right" looks like is more important than "Steps One through Eighteen to achieve Right."


Fantastic actually. We have dealt with monumental changes to our doctrine, systems, and force structures and most of it was from the ground up. Like I said above, a left and right of arc is not micromanaging or stifling innovation if you set clear goals and direction.




Trivial issues are not trivial when there are follow on effects that can jeopardize strategic efforts. Dress and deportment is one of those. Our international partners have actually refused working with Canadians that went off the deep end with the regs (Iraq and Poland being two I know of personally). We almost had 3 R 22e R sent home from JRTC in Louisiana because the Americans needed to be talked down off the ledge on their appearance.
I would love to hear what happened in JRTC.
 
Hardly.

We don't employ "grown ups," we employ soldiers, sailors, and aircrew (I refuse to use the term "aviator") in the Profession of Arms. Those in the Profession of Arms follow orders given, and they need to be clear and precise; not open to interpretation.

We give clear direction and guidance via orders/policy so that we don't have to waste time clarifying. That's on everything from pay and benefits, eqpt maintenance, material accountability, training safety, operating weaponry, tactics, drill & ceremonial, and yes... dress and deportment.

The Dress Reg changes that occured failed the clear direction and guidance part by a wide margin. They were written in such a vague manner that troops were taking miles with the inch given and NCOs were reluctant to enforce what they weren't clear on. Hence why you saw the bufoonery that made use all lose credibilty with our allies, our veterans, and our citizenry.

Like anything, if you give piss poor D&G, you don't get to be annoyed down theline when it misses the mark. Going back and having to say "well... not like that..." has you ending up looking like an ass. In this case, its well deserved.

The walking back that has been suggested should have been the chosen COA in 2022; but instead we got a weak, vague, and ridiculous "standard" because no one wanted to give clear arcs.

In my experience, the only time I have had to deal with adverse situations as a leader is when I decided against my better judgment to "treat people like grown ups." In everyone one of those cases, I had more ass pain cleaning up the mess than if I had just taken the time to spell it out.
Another example is blousing. The actual regs say it is still mandatory, but the army CWO posted a photo of someone wearing ankle boots that are too low to properly blouse, and troops took that to mean it wasn't required any more.
 
Back
Top