Yet ANOTHER Discussion on Torture

[Zell_Dietrich]

Point taken,  this is a public forum and as such we should project ourselves as humourless automatons. 

I know my joke about rescuing Canadians being held in Gitmo was in poor taste,  I let the levity of the moment outweigh my judgement. If this was the cause of that outlast, I am sorry. I know I took a very worthwhile thread and ran it into radio chatter - I'm sorry to the original poster. Although I think this part was just cut off of the thread and put down here where threads go to die

Now when I said before about it appearing rude and it being within the rules - it is nice to be nice.  Remember,  people tend to give back what they get,  I know myself apart from the lighthearted ribbing I feel I have been shown nothing but professionalism and respect. I hope I have given back the same.  Well I am generalising, I didn't feel to respected when someone tried to set me on fire in the mess.  (But I'm told the officers mess is like fight club,  what goes on there stays there) And I did get a beer and a lesson on making sure my boot bands stay right.   :warstory:

 

[paracowboy]

I know my joke about rescuing Canadians being held in Gitmo was in poor taste

absolutely. Anyone in there can fucking rot.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

absolutely. Anyone in there can ******* rot.

*second hijack whee I'm on a role*

So anyone in there is a bad person.  No trial, maybe no evidence.  Just you are in there so you must be guilty?  How about insted of abandoning the fundamental values of our society we hold a trial and sentence them like the criminals they are? (or may not be / thank you innocent until proven guilty)

 

[paracowboy]

So anyone in there is a bad person. 

yup. Nice and easy, isn't it? Glad you agree.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

yup. Nice and easy, isn't it? Glad you agree.

:rofl: 

I love your simplistic view on things,  however immerd.  I know we've gone over this bolus topic before and I know it comes down to a difference of opinion,  socail responsibility or the state version of antinomianism.    :blotto: 

 

[paracowboy]

:rofl: 

I love your simplistic view on things,  however immerd.  I know we've gone over this bolus topic before and I know it comes down to a difference of opinion,  socail responsibility or the state version of antinomianism.    :blotto: 

I can't help it. The over-blown pomposity in the wording and verbosity of your posts, combined with your constant attempts to educate us of the very social responsibilities we fight & vote to protect, when added to your relative youth and extreme inexperience...it just brings out the very worst in me.

 

[Troop Suporter]

*second hijack whee I'm on a role*

  How about insted of abandoning the fundamental values of<b> our</b> society we hold a trial and sentence them like the criminals they are?

Therein lies the fault with your argument.
Those are <b>our</b> values.
The terrorists do not share those values.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Therein lies the fault with your argument.
Those are <b>our</b> values.
The terrorists do not share those values.

Excellent point.

Now is how we conduct ourselves a reflection on who they are on who we are?  (there is another huge thread on this point somewhere here)
Holding true to our values is about who we are.  Besides,  I believe there is substantial evidence that practices outside of our values aren't that effective. (And just as much evidence to support the assertion that practices outside of our values is very counterproductive.)

And yes,  the directors here are very attentive.  I like it.

 

[Troop Suporter]

Excellent point.

Now is how we conduct ourselves a reflection on who they are on who we are? 

Neither.
How we conduct ourselves is a reflection of who they are.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Neither.
How we conduct ourselves is a reflection of who they are.

I think how I choose to act is a reflection on me.  If there were thieves around me, I wouldn't justify stealing other people's things by "Oh everyone is doing it". I would take great care to lock up my stuff and watch out for the thieves. The same goes for torturing captured prisoners.  True,  they didn't sign the geneova convention,  but we did.  We have chosen to conduct ourselves in a certain manner,  I have never heard of an effective argument for torture. It gives dubious information, creates extreme resentment - both in the tortured and those forces to witness/assist. Ultimately it is counter productive.   How we choose to conduct ourselves is a reflection of who we are.  (I apologise if I seem humourless on this subject, I just object strongly to those who want to change one of the fundamental underpinnings of this country.)

And yes it is spelled Sir but I hear a unique pronunciation of it as "hay-you" or simply "ya"

 

[rmacqueen]

How we choose to conduct ourselves is a reflection of who we are.

I am afraid that I have to go with zell on this one.  If we throw out the values that our country stands for, that our people have fought and died for and that we hold up as an example to the world, then the terrorists have won.  Their goal is to destroy our society and a large part of that society are our values.  The rule of law is not just a phrase to be tossed out for the sake of convenience and it applies to everyone, including those that are trying to destroy us.  It is the harder road to take but it is essential or our society has failed.

As for the Sir thing, I am currently in the process of becoming a CIC Officer (I know, a double whammy).  After a career as an NCM (who let slip, while teaching a mixed class of NCM's and OCdt's, "Don't call me Sir, my parents were married) I am going to have a hard time not bursting out laughing when someone calls me Sir or salutes me.  I already have to bite my tongue whenever one of the cadets calls me that.

 

[Troop Suporter]

I think how I choose to act is a reflection on me.  If there were thieves around me, I wouldn't justify stealing other people's things by "Oh everyone is doing it". I would take great care to lock up my stuff and watch out for the thieves.

If there were thieves around you, you would protect your stuff until you could catch the thieves, right?
When you catch them, you punish them, or at the very least, you lock them up so that they can't steal anymore.
If, one day, you think you can trust them, at that time, you release them, but continue to keep an eye on them until you are satisfied that they are rehabilitated.

True,  they didn't sign the geneova convention,  but we did.

The Geneva Convention governs armies that wear a uniform. It does not apply to terrorists who hide among civilians.

I have never heard of an effective argument for torture. It gives dubious information, creates extreme resentment - both in the tortured and those forces to witness/assist. Ultimately it is counter productive.

With all due respect, I don't think over feeding them is all that bad.......

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) - Offered a high-calorie diet and kept in their cells almost around the clock, many detainees at Guantanamo Bay are becoming fat.

Meals totaling a whopping 4,200 calories per day are brought to their cells - U.S. government dietary guidelines recommend 2,000 to 3,000 calories per day for weight maintenance - and some inmates are eating everything on the menu.

One detainee has almost doubled in weight, to 410 pounds (186 kilograms), Navy Cmdr. Robert Durand, spokesman for the detention facilities, said Monday.

Human rights groups attribute the weight gain to lack of mobility in the detainees' small cells. They cite accounts of released detainees who complained of being allowed to exercise fewer than three times a week.

But Durand said detainees are simply served a wide variety of food and expected to choose what appeals to them.

"The detainees are advised that they are offered more food than necessary to provide choice and variety, and that consuming all the food they are offered will result in weight gain," he said.

Most of the prisoners were picked up in Afghanistan and other conflict zones and were slightly underweight when they arrived at the military prison in southeast Cuba. Since then, they've gained an average of 20 pounds (9 kilograms), and most are now "normal to mildly overweight or mildly obese," he said.

The meals include meats prepared according to Islamic guidelines, fresh bread and yogurt. With nearly all detainees fasting in the daytime during Ramadan, authorities have arranged for two separate meals - a post-sunset meal and a midnight meal - to be delivered after dark. Traditional desserts and honey are served during the Ramadan observances.

The calorie intake at Guantanamo is well above the norm for federal inmates in the United States - they receive about 2,900 calories a day, said U.S. Bureau of Prisons spokesman Michael Truman. He said weight gain in the civilian system does not appear widespread and that most inmates "keep themselves in pretty good shape."

Prisoners who are more compliant get more exercise time at the prison, which now holds about 460 detainees, some of them kept for more than four years on suspicion of links to al-Qaida and the Taliban.

The most compliant detainees get up to 12 hours of exercise time, with access to treadmills, stationary bikes and other exercise equipment, Durand said. Guantanamo officials say "compliancy" is gauged solely by whether a detainee follows detention center rules and avoids causing disturbances, and has nothing to do with whether he is cooperating with interrogators.

Citing prison rules, Guantanamo officials wouldn't disclose the identity of their heaviest detainee, but Durand said he now weighs 410 pounds (186 kilograms), and arrived in 2002 weighing 215 pounds (98 kilograms).

Durand said all prisoners, including those held at maximum-security Camp 5, are allowed at least two hours of daily recreation - the minimum called for by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

 

[paracowboy]

I think how I choose to act is a reflection on me.  If there were thieves around me, I wouldn't justify stealing other people's things by "Oh everyone is doing it". I would take great care to lock up my stuff and watch out for the thieves. The same goes for torturing captured prisoners.  True,  they didn't sign the geneova convention,  but we did.  We have chosen to conduct ourselves in a certain manner,  I have never heard of an effective argument for torture. It gives dubious information, creates extreme resentment - both in the tortured and those forces to witness/assist. Ultimately it is counter productive.   How we choose to conduct ourselves is a reflection of who we are.  (I apologise if I seem humourless on this subject, I just object strongly to those who want to change one of the fundamental underpinnings of this country.)

And yes it is spelled Sir but I hear a unique pronunciation of it as "hay-you" or simply "ya"

and just who is advocating torture? I trust you aren't going to try to drag the hackneyed crap about Gitmo and Abu Graib into this, after the reams of threads explaining exactly how the treatment of Detainees in both locations is most definitely NOT torture?

 

[Torlyn]

The Geneva Convention governs armies that wear a uniform. It does not apply to terrorists who hide among civilians.

Check the convention again.  It doesn't just apply to those in uniform.  (Convention III, sec. 4a, iirc)

T

 

[Troop Suporter]

If we throw out the values that our country stands for, that our people have fought and died for and that we hold up as an example to the world, then the terrorists have won.

They haven't won anything, IMHO.
Remember that during WWII we interred Japanese Canadian citizens.
Did we hold German citizens as well? I'm not sure of my history.

I don't want the terrorists to win.
I'm boldly glad that the allies won WWII.
OTOH, if we lose this war, the terrorists will have won.

The question then becomes, what options do we have?

 

[Infanteer]

Torlyn is right; as well, Additional Protocol's 1 and 2 to the Geneva Conventions futher broaden who is deemed a combatant.

 

[Troop Suporter]

Check the convention again.  It doesn't just apply to those in uniform.  (Convention III, sec. 4a, iirc)

T

You made me look. 

Guerrillas are lawful combatants<b>  if </b>they belong to an organized resistance movement <b>of a party to the conflict,</b> are commanded by persons responsible for their subordinates, <b>wear a fixed distinctive sign, carry their arms openly, and obey the laws and customs of war</b>.

Thank you.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

(I hate being so humorless,  but 8 out of 10?  I'm thinking more 16 out of 20)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,226278,00.html
"Cheney also was asked about comments he made last week on a North Dakota radio station in which he was asked whether he'd condone dunking a terror suspect in water if it would save lives — an interrogation torture technique known as waterboarding, which mimics drowning.

Cheney called it a "no-brainer.""

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0610270170oct27,1,5525673.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
"Vice President Dick Cheney has confirmed that U.S. interrogators subjected captured senior Al Qaeda suspects to an interrogation technique called "waterboarding," which creates a sensation of drowning."

*this next link is offensive,  read it only if you enjoy getting angry and screaming at the computer screen*
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff114.html
If it is to far out there - mods feel free to remove the link.

And just to show how the use of political double speak is insulting our collective intelligence.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5068606.stm

I could sift through many other credible news articles and what not but it isn’t just about what our allies are doing explicitly,  but also what we are doing by complicity.  For example we knew that Arar was going to be/ was being/ had been tortured, along with a few other Canadians.  We knew it and we did nothing.  Citizenship entitles one to protection by the state.  If we think they are traitors, haul them in front of a judge and prove it – if some of the evidence can’t be publicly disclosed due to ongoing security reasons, so be it.

But yes,  this topic has be hashed out on another thread here http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2527.0.html towards the end.

 

[paracowboy]

water-boarding and similar, nastier, techniques are used by several NATO militaries in regular training. It ain't torture. It sucks, but it ain't torture.  :

 

[rmacqueen]

water-boarding and similar, nastier, techniques are used by several NATO militaries in regular training. It ain't torture. It sucks, but it ain't torture.  :

And what are they training for?