Weapons modification RANT.

[KevinB]

I noticed a few locked threads about weapon modifications -- quite frankly I disagree wholeheartedly with the mods on this one.

Your weapon is your life and I personal have found the CF to be very disinterested in providing me the best system for my uses while I was in uniform.  As such I have decided to post a rant and discussion combination with my thoughts and experience on different pieces of gear.
I've never had good luck with the C79


Combined with some humour  ;D

I ran a LMT BIS on the C8FTHB for a week or so -- I decided irons only was a handicap (more on that to follow)

I became intimately involved with the US SOPMOD project and its follow ons and decided that a railed system for the C7 was a much better choice (plus I could then use a laser, light and vert grip)

Velocity testing gave me the insight that the 16" barrel was a better choice and the 14.5 or 20" for GP usage

- and I hate the ELCAN so a 16" and ACOG TA31 - this setup did not last long (maybe a week) until the COC decided that a personal upper was pushing the envelope a tad bit much

Gee not like I had not pulled that one before 

C7CT

recent SOCOM version of the Elcan 1-4X variable and a Dr Optic mounting bracket

after all the pic porn -- my conclusion is as follows

C8SFW is better than a C8 or C7 (just as accurate yet more maneuverable than the C7 - barrel is a wee bit heavy for real use - but better than nothing... )

TRIAD-1 sucks ass -- try to get a rail (freefloat it better -- but the CF does frown on you removing the front sight gas block  )

Variable power (1-4x) scopes are much better than fixed for general purpose usages
Elcan still sucks
a day time (and night) illuminated reticle is a must - optics provide a HUGE gain in combat capability (but have and maintain proficiency with a BIS)


Get a redi-mag MarkC was 100% right on that one.


Minus the ATIPAL I just snagged this is my 99% system

 

[KevinB]

and most importantly

NEVER EVER go any anywhere without your hair care products

 

[paracowboy]

that's all well and good, but telling troops to modify their weapons is just going to get them in shit. They can't do it.

We can create all manner of theads about what makes a weapons system better. We can recommend kit. We can provide proof. We can scream and yell about the failure of NDHQ to adapt with the times, and provide better equipment, or looser regulations.

We can do anything we want EXCEPT tell soldiers to ignore the rules. We do that, and we're not just negligent, we're irresponsible.

And what happens when Troopie McSnuffie, who doesn't know anywhere near as much as he thinks he does, starts putting garbage on his rifle? We have people on this site who don't even know how to shoot properly, let alone understand ballistics, or why some items actually work, and others don't.

 

[Big Red]

If nobody pushes the envelope by using unauthorized but effective kit/weapons, nothing will change.  New developments in kit aren't pushed from the top down, they start from the individual soldier coming up with a better way of doing things.  Look at how well the C7A2 and TV turned out....

There's no reason the CF or invdividual units can't come up with a list of authorized optics or accessories.  US soldiers in some units have alot of lattitude on kit selection and they don't seem to end up buying junk. 

 

[KevinB]

PCB -- roger that.

However systems in use with the CF (EOTECH, RAS, etc) have been approved for use - and are issue yet in way to few quantities.

 When part of the SecAud in Kabul I saw a MSG with a $20 .22 red dot scope on his C8 on a el cheapo Fobus rail system -- I agree with your premise on some kit is garbage and a lot of troops do not understand what is GTG and what is not -- however a NSN'd system in use with the CF is a hard issue to argue against.


Second point - I would agree that while a Pte with a few years in may not really understand the what and why's a recce pl or sniper det guy can make a pretty informed choice as to what and why he feels he need to mod his weapon to better do the job and score more point with the ladies...

IF everyone just accepts the status quo then nothing will change for the better -- the conventional side of the CF owes Maj Louis DeSousa a huge debt of gratitude for procurment of the C8SFW and EOTECH - without his "resourcefulness" a lot of the Lessons Learned would not have been incorporated by DLR 5-5.  

However I disagree with the CF that due to funding some trades and some pieces of units will not have access to equitpment -- if troops are willing I believe that they and their paycheque should be able to decide if they want to augment their issue kit.  I for one would simply allow "issue kit" that is not issued to his/her own unit to be personally funded.

Certain pieces of units have ignored the "directives" about weapon mods anyway already -- and when it is your ass on the line -- as you know -- you have a vested interest in keeping it out of harms way.

 

[vonGarvin]

OK, not to sound too much like a rock painter, but someone else here said it well already, and I will amplify those setiments.  We are part of an army, funded by the state.  I-6 makes some very good points, but remember, he is funding his own mods on his own (not as a member of the CF) and he is very knowledgeable.  If you want a mod, go ask a weapon's tech.  Chances are they may be able to help, and they are the professionals in terms of weapons and such.  The last thing a weapon's tech needs to hear is "it seemed like a good idea at the time".  Or, put in your release, apply to do some "freelance" work, and if you have the requisite knowledge, you'll be a master at your craft.  And there are ways in the system to implement change

If nobody pushes the envelope by using unauthorized but effective kit/weapons, nothing will change. 

Sure it will.  If you use unauthorized kit/weapons, effective or not, you will be charged.  Full stop.  Not only is it dangerous, it is full of contempt.  Having said that, if person "A" sees a better way to do things or a better piece of kit, make some noise and see if it could be used with blessing of your chain of command with some professional opinion (say by a weapons' tech on a jammy piece of kit that could be added to your rifle as an example).

 

[paracowboy]

we have to push the envelope. There is no question. And we can make any manner of suggestions on here. BUT we CANNOT tell troops to disobey legal orders, no matter how stupid they are.

If Trooper Bloggins starts tacking stuff on his weapon, and get his ass charged, WE did it to him. We have to push the envelope, but we have to ensure that the troops don't pay the price for it. There are methods to use inside the system, and there are ways to go outside it (like this, for instance) to make positive changes.

BUT we CANNOT tell troops to disobey legal orders, no matter how stupid they are.

And, vG - do NOT mock the hair! Infidel has his priorities straight here. Let there be no doubt in that regard.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Hmm.

Using unauthorized/un-issued weapons is a definate bad idea.  Modifying your weapons can also get you in big trouble if it has to do with modifying the effects of said weapon.  None of this seems to be along those lines.

Slings and aiming devices don't seem like a big deal to me.  The chain of command at a rather low level should be able to approve certain pieces of ancillary gear (I'm thinking section commanders here).  If the Sgt says its cool its cool by me.  It'll be his battle anyway.

Look at any group photo of a victorious bunch of soldiers.  They will often have an amazing variety of gear and weapons.  The PWs, however, usually look rather uniform as they trudge off to the cages.

As an aside, the C8 "heavy barrel" is definately a good piece of kit. 

Cheers,

2B

p.s. My head, unfortunately, needs sunscreen as opposed to pomade... :crybaby:

 

[KevinB]

On the hair,
 A good friend (you might know - former Royal turned professional "skier") Rocky B said -- its much more important to look good doing it - that do it well -> since if you look good it will look professional and attract less attention   


Secondly I would caution anyone from taking advice from weapon tech's - as a Colt M16 armorer I can tell you from dealing with some weapons techs they are parts changers and that is all -- I know some exceptionally gifted and skilled ones -- but I know others that are dimwitted tools.  I much prefer the older ones that where true armorers - rather than the "technician" skill set of today -- no to say that the younger ones are bad (I've seen both bad and good for both ages).  Get to know your weapons techs -- the good ones are exceptional helpful and knowledgeable about weapon operations -- However even the most gifted weapons tech does not have a background in combat and while they can alter the weapon to your requirments (there are those who will add freefloat tubes etc.) they will not typically understand your needs or want from the end user perpective.

In truth only you the end user can tell what your needs are -- hopefully you have the skills to determine those needs in advance.


As 2B stated and has been reflected on all the 1CMBG rotations to Afghan I can recall

-- in many units there is a determination that anything that does not alter the weapons charactertics permamenty is not a mod but a user enhancement.
Lights, Vert grips, Drop on (KAC) rails, optics etc are usually okay (at least PPCLI side it was)

Maj Campbell's Redi-mag recommendation (and use) was an examply of the C-o-C realising that in combat you do what you need.


I would never push a troop into a weapon mod (although - you may have noticed I have lent a countless thousand of dollars in kit to guys deployed) I certainly would not stop them (unless its garbage)

 

[paracowboy]

  Modifying your weapons can also get you in big trouble if it has to do with modifying the effects of said weapon. 

sadly, this is where you run into dinosaurs who don't properly understand either their weapons, or the Geneva Conventions, and try to charge troops for attaching a C9 butt grip to their forestock (true story) or attaching a civvie-purchase light to their crappy tri-mount as there aren't enough Surefires in the system.

Or for sewing their M203 bandoliers onto their crappy TV in order not to strangle themselves. (Destruction of DND property. I couldn't make that up.)

 

[Armymedic]

we have to push the envelope. There is no question. And we can make any manner of suggestions on here. BUT we CANNOT tell troops to disobey legal orders, no matter how stupid they are.

Nor should we, as was asked in another thread, allow stuff like this privately purchased and shipped into theater right int the war zone. (A FOO should be calling in support , not shooting back)

My biggest beef is that we have the gear like the FTHB and EOTechs, PAQs etc over there, and over there is the first time we ever get to use them. Train as you fight, and fight with what you've trained on. The day of the fight is not the day to be trying something new. Lets get the gear before, get used to it and see what its advantages and limitations are.

Further, its not the gear on the weapon that makes the weapon deadly, it is the mind controling the weapon that makes it deadly....all that gear just makes it heavier.

 

[vonGarvin]

On the hair,
 A good friend (you might know - former Royal turned professional "skier") Rocky B said -- its much more important to look good doing it - that do it well -> since if you look good it will look professional and attract less attention   

If you happen to see RB, please tell him I said hello!  I remember the days when he was a mini-RB and trapsing around the back of my track!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I think some are skirting the this question.  If an EOTech xyz is authorized for use but there are too few is it the end of the world if someone purchases his own EOTech xyz.  
Troops were using fleece and bivvy bags long before the army got a clue and I think its because so many went on their own to get the stuff the army eventually woke up.
Wpn mods, whether cosmetic such as a rail hand guard or sights I think will always be touchy because the army is afraid of losing control.  Whether that be quality control or a deluge of different sights that may not fit the bill.

Me personally I will take my chances but in no way will encourge others to follow my foot steps.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Infidel could you be so kind to initially spell out all your acronyms and everytime you add one.

 

[KevinB]

:

 While I agree that the time to learn to use it is not in threatre - its better than nothing.

While I would not tell a medic how to do his job - I would suggest that if the FOO feels its time to use his C8 - you give him credence that he knows his job.

BTW - I had 6 EOTECH's, a NightForce 2.5-10X, 4 M4 RAS, and a shitload of SureFire lights (the good i.e. non CF version) shipped via the CF mail system and while it takes for ever vice the US APO system -- it does indeed get their since it is entirely legal to ship or possess.

My god - you'd think some of you beleive that guy wanted to ship a suitcase nuke or something to his brother  


VG -- he's doing well - got an email last week from him - he's still at our old Stalag, but he has an excellent job there and his hookedup all over town

I finally found someone who likes to fuck around more than me...

 

[vonGarvin]

I much prefer the older ones that where true armorers - rather than the "technician" skill set of today -- no to say that the younger ones are bad (I've seen both bad and good for both ages).  Get to know your weapons techs -- the good ones are exceptional helpful and knowledgeable about weapon operations -- However even the most gifted weapons tech does not have a background in combat and while they can alter the weapon to your requirments (there are those who will add freefloat tubes etc.) they will not typically understand your needs or want from the end user perpective.

Exactly: first see the true armourer, rather than just a "tech".  From my experience with dealing with them (about weapons a wee bit too heavy to carry, anyway), if you tell them what you want, they can provide the 'how'.  They may not understand the 'why', but who cares?  Get their advice/help, get the job done, trial it for effectiveness, modify as necessary, and then when satisfied, go on in your merry way!

 

[Big Red]

Nor should we, as was asked in another thread, allow stuff like this privately purchased and shipped into theater right int the war zone. (A FOO should be calling in support , not shooting back)

A warzone is the soldiers workplace...where else should he use his kit? Obviously you should try the item out on the range before using it on missions, but that can be done in theatre if needed.  Often it's only when you get overseas that you realize you need a particular piece of kit or capability.

US soldiers in many units can use a variety of rails, optics, VFGs, lights, stocks, even complete personal uppers.  Guys get weapons parts, uppers, and aftermarket kit shipped over here all the time.  SF soldiers and contractors are constantly modifying their weapons to find out what works best for THEM.

If a giant machine like the US mil can handle the *anarchy* of allowing personal weapons mods why can't a small army like ours?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Cause ours are anal pricks were a lot of them have no cmbt experience but think they know it all.  Another thread entirely.

 

[vonGarvin]

In spite of the opinion that our chain of command is anally retentive and the like, the army is a place where you follow orders and do what you are told.  You are expected to show initiative, but you are not allowed to show license.  There are ways to implement changes, as have been outlined.  I-6 makes some excellent points, but remember that he saw greener pastures and chose to follow them.  I, like others on here, saw no greener pastures and chose to remain, to abide by the rules and to work within them.  Change?  Yes, sometimes it's hard, but that's life, and it's no different outside the army than within it.  
So, I-6 has made some useful posts re: weapons modifications.  Now remember that he has made some other very useful posts re: training.  Regardless if we have are armed with a Mark One fist, a Cross bow or a Phased Plasma Rifle, if we aren't trained in their effective use, we may as well stay home and play Nintendo!

 

[paracowboy]

My god - you'd think some of you beleive that guy wanted to ship a suitcase nuke or something to his brother  

no. I just didn't want the dude to get charged by one of the afore-mentioned dinosaurs. I think we all know how much I love the EOTech. Even more than the Aimpoint. (As an example)

While I would like the Army to smarten up and allow troops to kit their stuff out better, I know that it's going to end up badly the first time some Chairborne Garatrooper sees a troop with his boots unbloused, and an "illegal modification" to his weapon.