Universities, the military, and political beliefs.

[boots]

Ok here's a better question for you, so you all don't end up thinking I'm like Reese Witherspoon in Legally Blonde. :

From what I understand, the requirement for all officers (all new ones anyway) to hold degrees is relatively new. In general, the military tends to be a conservative section of society, and universities tend to be liberal. So this means that the CF will likely end up taking in more university graduates with liberal ideals. My question is, do you think that this will begin to affect military culture over time, and how so? Or do you think that the effects are minimal, because this only applies to DEOs, or the liberal subsection of society isn't going to be more like to join the CF (This depends on whether you think that universities induce or simply attract liberal minded people, or that it's just because universities are full of youth.), or perhaps that most will just go to RMC (which is probably a rather conservative environment)?

Your thoughts?

 

[KevinB]

As some one who had been in the CF and attended Universities (Carleton and Calgary). 

  I have noted that the dynamic of the CF is somewhat more conservative that the general public.  I do not feel Universities to be a moderating factor - for while young officers may arrive with dreams of grandeur they are quickly crushed by the realities of CF life  -- and Deployments.

 

[Infanteer]

I agree with Kevin - as Huntington explored in the Soldier and the State, the very nature of the military institution forces its members into a more conservative, realist mode of thought (there are exceptions, but this is a good approximation of the general trend).

 

[Britney Spears]

I went to university. I learned to think for myself and make up my own darn mind.

I also learned to use descriptive thread titles so that people would actually know what the thread was about before opening it.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[George Wallace]

- for while young officers may arrive with dreams of grandeur they are quickly crushed by the realities of CF life  

Usually called a Platoon/Troop Warrant Officer.  ;D

 

[xFusilier]

Also, to a certain extent those individuals who feel themselves called to the profession of arms, are for the most part have more conservative political views.

 

[boots]

I also learned to use descriptive thread titles so that people would actually know what the thread was about before opening it.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

I'm sorry, it made more sense before the thread got moved to this part of the board. I've changed it now.

 

[MC]

I am a student at Laval University, involved in the faculty and college-wide student associations, as well as an ocdt in the ROTP program.

First, you need to know that there are several faculties that are more conservative than the "vocal" elements of the student body, which are what you associate the "liberalism" of the university environment.  Most of these moderate students are pretty nonchalant regarding student and governmental politics, so the left usually gets their way and that is what you see in the media. Here at Laval, its pretty much all of the departments in Sciences and Engineering, Administration Sciences and Health Sciences, and incidently all officer candidates studying here come from these faculties. I couldn't imagine someone studying social sciences making a career in the infantry, which is not to say anything negative about social sciences, just to confirm the impression that people who join the military have a more rational mindset.

 

[Infanteer]

I couldn't imagine someone studying social sciences making a career in the infantry.

Well imagine it, because you're talking to one - among hundreds.   Look at the curriculum of most Command and Staff Colleges and University War Studies programs; they are interdisciplinary approaches to the"social sciences".   It's been that way since Scharnhorst and the Prussians started the Kreigsacadamie, which is founded on along the lines of Kantian approaches to education - the American's at West Point (and by default, the RMC which was modeled upon it) picked up a preference for science/engineering from the French who's roots are found in Cartesian system.

 

[KevinB]

I couldn't imagine someone studying social sciences making a career in the infantry, which is not to say anything negative about social sciences, just to confirm the impression that people who join the military have a more rational mindset.

  ???  I am a Social Science guy -- what are you trying to say??? 
I'll have you know I did a 3rd year Gender Equality and the Law course - with a paper and presentation on Parental Leave and why spousal benifits should be the same (and wearing a Airborne sweatshirt too boot  ;D )

 

[MC]

Well imagine it, because you're talking to one - among hundreds.  Look at the curriculum of most Command and Staff Colleges and University War Studies programs; they are interdisciplinary approaches to the"social sciences".  It's been that way since Scharnhorst and the Prussians started the Kreigsacadamie, which is founded on along the lines of Kantian approaches to education - the American's at West Point (and by default, the RMC which was modeled upon it) picked up a preference for science/engineering from the French who's roots are found in Cartesian system.

I stand corrected  war studies does indeed seem very interesting and I would imagine there are many people in the military, especially the combat arms, who have studied the field. although, their seems to be a world of difference to me between the military and political science or sociology taught here. heh, simply as an anecdote, I go to their cafeterias from time to time and what always shocks me  are their billboards. where as ours (engineering) are covered with available internships and jobs, theirs are flooded by anti-justaboutanythingyoucanthinkof association manifestos... when would you infantry types go and deal with the enemy if you were always busy bleeding your hearts about the injustices of modern society?

 

[MC]

  ???  I am a Social Science guy -- what are you trying to say??? 
I'll have you know I did a 3rd year Gender Equality and the Law course - with a paper and presentation on Parental Leave and why spousal benifits should be the same (and wearing a Airborne sweatshirt too boot  ;D )

heh, oh yes, gender equality. always a favorite topic in military circles

 

[vangemeren]

Looking at the York thread it seems to me my school, Nipissing U, does not have an activist student government and is more concerned with internal affairs regarding the school. In the last three years I've been there, however there seems to be a more vocal movement by a small group of people to make the student government more activist. This manifested itself in a referendum on the school's involvement with the Canadian Federation of Students.

I would think that the two reserve units in North Bay, The Algonquin Regiment and the 26 Service Battalion would hardly exist without the university and college in town, because of the size of the city (52,000 in 2001)

... always busy bleeding your hearts about the injustices of modern society?

That's why I try to avoid the Social Justice/Gender Equality wing of the school.  :blotto:

As a side note though I'm an Environmental Science major.

 

[Pieman]

Most of the people I knew in University didn't give a rats arrse about anything beyond the laboratory, especially my professors.

 

[couchcommander]

Yes, universities tend to be leftist, but most of the people I know who are planning a career in the CF aftewards tend to be a special breed and don't typically (in my experience) fit into the usual "student" stereotype.

 

[boots]

My university is fairly liberal, or at least stands out that way to me in a smallish conservative town. I consider myself a centrist, because I think both sides of the spectrum have something to offer and make some good points and some bad ones. I don't really like any of the political parties that we have, so voting is frustrating for me because it's always a matter of voting for whichever major party I dislike less that will keep the major party I like the least out of power, without really wanting the party I vote for to win either.

My roommates on the other hand... I live with another girl, and two guys. All of us are/were students. I'm the first one to be finished. She is also centrist, like me, and follows a similar voting strategy. The boys however are naive and youthful and more leftist than we are. Also, when I told them I wanted to join, both of them piped in and said they had/were thinking about it too. I'm convinced that was a 'me too' thing, because I know them and I don't honestly believe either of them would seriously consider it. I know that neither of them would last too long in training unless they made some major major changes in their ways of life. One of them runs off to sulk at the least criticism, and the other has no sense of responsibility. I wonder what they expect the military would do for them? :-\ Who knows, maybe they'd find something in themselves and shape up. If so I think it would be good for them.

 

[pbi]

I'm not sure that just going to a civilian university produces more "liberal" officers. After all, look at the US Army: IIRC, only about 25% of the offcers are products of West Point; of the remainder, a large percentage are products of civilian universities(among other sources). I would not classify the US Army as a stronghold of "liberalism" (nor, I daresay, would they...)

As well, take a look at the upper echelons of Canadian business, almost all of whose occupants have at least one degree. Not too many left-wing "fellow travellers" in the boardroom or corporate offices, are there?

So, I agree with the posters who have suggested that it depends far more upon your personal inclinations and your field of study than merely upon the fact of having been to a university. Those students who choose the profession of arms are not likely to be the same ones ranting over Student Radio or preaching to the converted in the quadrangle.

Cheers

 

[Glorified Ape]

I couldn't imagine someone studying social sciences making a career in the infantry, which is not to say anything negative about social sciences, just to confirm the impression that people who join the military have a more rational mindset.

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus Christ, what is it with people and knocking the Arts/Social Sciences? I'm in Political Science and I'm slated for Infantry Officer. Implying that those in the social sciences/arts are less rational is necessarily saying something negative about the social sciences and its constituency. I'd say I'm a pretty rational person (though some here might disagree ). The professors I've had have all been very rational people. The overwhelming majority of my classmates have been just as rational, if not moreso, than the people I've trained with in the military.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Being an officer or NCO in the Infantry is a program in the practical application of the social sciences, and a life experiment in cultural anthropology.

 

[pbi]

Oh---is it my turn?

OK-well, I'm an Infantryman and my degree is PoliStud/Psych. So there.

Cheers.