Trying to start a reserve unit

[redleafjumper]

The community where I live has a population of nearly 80,000.  It has not had a reserve unit present since the late sixties, although there are three cadet corps.  Several people in the community, with the support of the mayor, have been trying to start an infantry company, but we have been running into major roadblocks.  The main problems appear to be:
    a.  Lack of resources at the brigade level to fund a new unit
    b.  Concern about competition over resources within the brigade
    c.  Lack of political will to form a unit (this is a problem both with the CF and the federal politicians)
    d.  Limited access to personnel with recent appropriate MOC

Any suggestions?  The mayor formed a committee to lobby on this issue and on the military side, the matter has gotten some sympathy but little action.  Local MLA's and MP's have all been supportive as have community leaders and educational institutions.  There have been some visits by senior officers from brigade to look at the area and the feedback has always been positive.  An interesting point is that, according to recruiters, the area has been a very good source for regular army recruits.  Community support for getting a unit established remains strong.  Any of you have any suggestions on how to get things rolling?  I look forward to your helpful suggestions.

 

[Infanteer]

I see your from BC and that the town is about 80,000.  Would this be Prince George by any chance?  I've thought that place to be an excellent location for a reserve unit or two.  I remember hearing rumors of the Rocky Mountain Rangers trying to set up shop there.

 

[redleafjumper]

Yes, it is Prince George.  The Rocky Mountain Rangers have made a few attempts over the past 15 years to try to re-establish the company that was shut down.  The last attempt by the previous CO was shut down by Brigade - it seemed to be gaining momentum, a few of us had even carried processing to come off of Supp List and the rug got pulled out from under everyone.  It's one of the hazards of living out west and up north in a country that has its votes down south and back east.

 

[pbi]

Redleaf: Don't give up.
In 38 CBG we faced the rejection of a similar proposal under the last round of LFRR Change Proposals, even though it was supported up to Area Comd level. We put forward the plan of the SaskD to re-establish their troop in Swift Current (it was closed in the 70's). The unit has recruited successfully and is running a "bukshi" troop in the former Armoury (now the Civic Centre) with the strong support of the community. When the idea got up to the LFRR shop(which is composed mostly of Reservists), it was shot down because it "lacked a recruiting base". This despite the fact that we had identified a market area of around 100,000 people within Army of the West commuting distance. I say "Army of the West" because some people back East panic if they have to drive more than 30 min to get to the Armoury. Drives of 1-3 hours are common in our Brigade. The trick to rural recruiting (which seems to escape the types who live in the recruit-rich Southen Ontario belt, is to recruit widely rather than deeply. This may mean parading on weekends instead of parade nights (as a couple of our units do) but so what. You get a hell of a lot more done on a weekend anyway.

Don't let the idea die. Reserve soldiering is not just for people in big cities. IMHO it is the units in the smaller communities that often have the stronger footprint. Good luck to you. Cheers.

 

[Donut]

I think I should point out that it's a matter of conflicting priorities on the part of the brigade, as 39CBG is in the middle of standing up a new Eng Support Squadron in Abbotsford.

Having a good idea as to the recruiting and training situation in BC, it would be utter folly to try to add yet more sub-unit's worth of pers to an already overtaxed system when we have problems getting the replacements for a normal attrition rate trained.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to expand both the C Scot R and R M  Rangers by one company each, but I don't think this is the right time for it.

my two cents

DF

 

[NMPeters]

Redleafjumper: As the Public Affairs Officer for LFRR and basically the one who writes the LFRR perspective in any correspondance from the Minister of National Defence when it pertains to us, may I offer the suggestion of waiting until the Defence Policy Review is completed and released. I then suggest that the committee scour that document and then offer up the proposal of a new unit, ensuring that it supports and complements what is written in the Defence Policy Review. I also suggest that you look at other units out west and perhaps suggest to them that the unit simply expands company size to Prince George, thereby alleviating the need for new structure. You would simply be using the existing structure of an existing unit and adding to it. That carries a lot of weight. Also, be sure to include infrastructure suggestions and costs as infrastructure is a very contentious issue.

pbi: As I was acting Project Director during the growth proposal time last year, there were more reasons why that particular proposal was not accepted at this time. I just pulled out the excel chart that was used and there were other factors that came into play. First of all, the recruiting base that you stipulated was not one that was sustaining. According to the Stats Can data that we used, it predicts that the population base in that area is declining. Also, it was not a new capability, it was not an enhanced capability, it did not support the Interim Army Plan (which was being used at that time) or the Mobilization Plan, we did not see anything in the proposal that would suggest retention enhancement, and it didn't use existing infrastructure. Now, of course, the existing infrastructure point is rather moot when expanding to a new location, but it was one of the criteria that we used for all the proposals. Also, I looked at the letter signed by A/CLS which states that those proposals that were not accepted during that time would be re-considered at a later date. Keep in mind, we still have not received funding for the last 1500 growth that is supposedly to bring us up to 18,500 at the end of 06.

 

[redleafjumper]

There are some very good points here and I appreciate the feedback and rally attempts.    The attempt to re-establish a company here has gone through the white paper of the Mulroney area - the Rangers attempt at that time was "put on hold" to "await the the outcome of the white paper".  As that paper was obsolete before it came out due to changes in the international environment (ie. Our glorious victory in the "cold war.), the company in Prince George was not to be.  Then came a series of reviews; reserve force restructuring, and now a defence policy review.
None of them seem destined to answer the central question:  "Who are the potential enemies of Canada and what should our military look like in preparing to meet the threat represented by these potential enemies?" and none of them have anything to say about tapping into the tremendous recruiting base in this area.  Over the years I have written proposals, lobbied politicians, colonels and generals and while there is sympathy, it has yet to translate into action.   
NMPeters' suggestion of expanding an existing unit is precisely the concept that I have been promoting.  The phases that I have identified would be to:
      a.  identify interested persons especially those with relevant military credentials,
      b.  "retread" those interested officers and ncm's to establish a command cadre on which to base recruiting,
      c.  establish an RSS prescence to provide current experience and keep thing on track,
      d.  begin initial recruiting
      d.  rent parade facilities
      e.  Recruit, recruit recruit
      f.  train, train, train.
      g.  repeat as needed and ultimately establish permanent facilities.

I did a costing for the whole thing which is now out of date, but it's still reasonably close for discussion purposes:

Estimated cost to organize and maintain an infantry company in Prince George, BC

Infantry Company Cost â “ Pay (estimated average daily rates at full strength)

Enlisted Personnel: 117     1 person per day 20 Days        Times 20 days

80 Privates     ($76.00) $1520.00      $121600.00
12 Corporals   ($100.00) $2000.00        $24000.00
10 Master Corporals ($106.00)     $2120.00        $21200.00
10 Sergeants ($115.00)       $2300.00        $23000.00
4  Warrant Officers ( $128.00)       $2560.00        $10240.00
1  Master Warrant Officer       ($140.00)   $2800.00          $2800.00

Subtotal:         $202840.00
Officers: 6

4 Lts/2Lts ($120.00) $2400.00 $9600.00
1 Captain ($150.00) $3000.00 $3000.00
1 Major         ($140.00) $3800.00 $3800.00

Subtotal:           $16400.00

Annual reserve pay:            $219,240.00

Part time personnel receive 20 days pay per year at unit training, plus daily pay for summer training.  Summer Training not included.
Full-time Personnel might include: 
      RSS Officer (Full time regular Captain) $60,000
      RSS NCO  (Full time regular Sgt/WO) $52,000
      Class B NCO (Clerk and/or storeman) $36,000


Total Personnel (Reserves plus RSS):         $367,240.00
Summer training pay:         $250,000.00
Plus 10% to allow for pay variance 61,724.00
Estimated total annual salaries for one company:         $678,964.00

*Summer training of 6-12 weeks duration for many unit members can increase this amount substantially.  A conservative estimate would be to increase this amount by
$250,000.00




.../2
- 2 â “

Other costs:

Additional costs would include supply and infrastructure costs, vehicles, maintenance, and exercise expenses, as well as rations.  A building would cost money to either construct or rent and annual maintenance.


Estimated Building Cost:                    $1,162,000.00  (including purchasing a suitable lot)
Annual building expenses:                    $ 52,000.00   (includes heating,
lights, lot maintenance and snow removal, etc.)
Other expenses:

Clothing and equipment for soldiers
Training aids and supplies
Office supplies and infrastructure                 


Operating a militia unit is not cheap.  It involves a large initial expense and considerable annual expenditure.  This amount of money would have a strong positive impact on the local economy, and would provide a well-trained unit for military service. 

There are ways in which some initial costs could be lowered;

a. Obtain donation of land and/or building for training site
b. Begin initial infrastructure by renting or borrowing space to parade and to store weapons and vehicles
c. Begin by training a small command cadre to mitigate need for more than one RSS at start-up when unit is small.  Note that there would be a need to have trained leaders in place to recruit and train the other members.  Probably a good initial start-up would involve one Regular Senior NCM, two or more reserve officers and 3 or more junior NCMs.


Estimated initial expense:      $1,360,000.00
Estimated annual expense:        $720,000.00

Start up cost would be considerably less, as there would only be a few personnel and no need to construct a building.  Before the unit is expanded to full strength, it would be necessary to secure permanent parade facilities.


My personal vision is to see an independant company in Prince George with sub-units in Quesnel, Vanderhoof and Mackenzie, and as PBI (poor bloody infantry?) pointed out people up here would drive a long ways to have this sort of fun.  As you see the whole thing has been going on for a while and yet another defence review is unlikely to make much difference.  An infantry company in Prince George  is a good idea though and I intend to keep pushing it forward. 

 

[NMPeters]

I would suggest removing the whole "purchase" of infrastructure and develop more the ideas of renting, leasing, or shared use facilities. Also, don't be stuck on infantry. We have lots of that. If you want to get it passed by the politicians and grown ups here, take a look at new capabilities.

 

[redleafjumper]

Those are good suggestions and would be in line with the way many cadet corps set up their operations - low cost with lots of activity.
Some of the reasons that infantry is of interest (as a starting point) is that it is considerably less expensive to raise an infantry unit in terms of the equipment and infrastructure expenses.  Engineer units, for example, while in high demand for various "peacekeeping" operations are both very expensive and have a higher training cost than infantry.  There is of course somewhat of a community attachment to the Rocky Mountain Rangers and during the war the city was the training base for an entire infantry (albeit "zombie" or conscript) division.  An infantry unit would also be the easiest unit to raise and have one of the quickest start-up times.  Incidentally that costing was previously submitted to 39 Brigade and to LFWA as well as the minister.  Comments on it were received from 38 and 39 Brigade that supported the concept of a unit of some sort in Prince George but pointed out that there were no resources available to fund one.  During the recent effort to form a company here I was able to arrange free storage for weapons at North District HQ RCMP (NDHQ! funny that...) and temporary free parade facilities at the local Legion.  Of course neither of those offers were taken advantage of due to the whole process collapsing yet again.

Given these constraints, it would seem practical to have some interested persons taken off of supp list for current training to be in place to build a unit.  However, as one staff officer put it to me, the concern would be what the cap badge was, or how far the nose of the camel would be in the tent before a decision was made as to the type or types of unit that might or might not be established.  It is interesting to note that there are some active Canadian Ranger units in smaller communities in the region, but nothing like that is permitted in a large city like Prince George.

 

[pbi]

NM Peters. Thanks for your e-mail. This is my public answer to the LFRR explanation ref the Sask D troop in Swift Current:

First of all, the recruiting base that you stipulated was not one that was sustaining. According to the Stats Can data that we used, it predicts that the population base in that area is declining. Also, it was not a new capability, it was not an enhanced capability, it did not support the Interim Army Plan (which was being used at that time) or the Mobilization Plan, we did not see anything in the proposal that would suggest retention enhancement, and it didn't use existing infrastructure. Now, of course, the existing infrastructure point is rather moot when expanding to a new location, but it was one of the criteria that we used for all the proposals.

NMPeters: I was COS 38 CBG (I still am, I think.....) and the OPI LFRR for 38 CBG during this. I am most interested in your response, because to the best of my knowledge almost none of this was communicated to us. A few points:

Recruiting Base: If you apply that rationale, then shut down 38 CBG because except for Winnipeg/Brandon, all our demographics are static/declining. But, this argument misses the point: we are talking about a troop of at most 30 pers, with an eventual view to a Sqn. We are not trying to recruit 1000 people in a declining demographic;

New Capability: And yet LFRR allowed the formation of Cbt A subunits in LFCA, did it not. How is an Inf Coy a "new capability"?;

Interim Army Plan/Mobilization Plan: Specious arguments, at the very best. The IA plan is much too vague on the issue of Reserves to have been a useful discriminator in this process. The "Mobilization Plan" , whatever this is imagined to be ,has yet to be communicated to 38 CBG (or, I daresay, LFWA) so I don't know how we could have used it as a guideline, other than what was reflected in the LFRR directive. On top of all this, our proposal format included a clear explanation (or as clear as we could make it...) of how the troop would benefit the Army. It was not different in quality than the justifications we used for our other proposals, three of which were accepted (Engrs, Arty, CSS)

Retention Enhancement I wrote and re-wrote all of our proposals myself. I do not recall this being a requirement. Maybe I missed it. And anyway, quite the contrary, establishing   a troop in Swift Current would be a definite retention enhancer.

Existing Infrastructure: The current "bukshi" troop parades in the old Swift Current Armoury (one of the newest in the Bde when it was closed) The unit has a rental arrangement with the City. Enhancements were well within the art of the possible. If this criteria was used by somebody, please tell me how the Army approved the  establishment of  Res Cbt A subunits in Mississauga and Scarborough where there was no infrastructure?? Sounds like a double standard to me.

Cheers.

 

[Infanteer]

Good and solid looking proposal, redleaf.

I think an Infantry Company in Prince George is a splendid idea.  Why?

1)  The Infantry would be easy to set up if it was to be an existing sub-unit of the Rocky Mountain Rangers, located 5 hours drive south.  It seems to me that if you could piggyback their existing infrastructure, you could save alot of the hassle.

2)  Northern BC remains untapped as far as reserve manpower is concerned.  No community footprint in any of these communities what so ever, and many of them are over 10,000 people.  You could easily have a platoon in each if you bothered, or, like PBI said, have them travel the hour to PG to train once in a while.

3)  I am unsure of the status (I know we discussed it earlier), but perhaps the Chilcotin Training Area, east of Williams Lake, could be reopened and used as a congregation point for reservists in Northern BC.

4)  I am unsure of the notion of static or declining demographics.  Coming from a community in Northern BC, I believe an advantage that the small "declining" town units may have in terms of turbulence.  Larger cities thrive off post secondary students.  As well, people are constantly moving in the city.  In these smaller communities, most of the young people get into steady, long term jobs in the forest industry.  I can't back this up through anything but a feeling, but I suspect you would see alot less turbulence with a reserve unit in these communities.

 

[redleafjumper]

Thanks for the support Infanteer!  There is certainly a lot more to the proposal than the costing document that I posted, but it does capture a reasonable estimate of the money involved.  Certainly your comments are in line with the reasons for making it an infantry unit.  Obviously there have been discussions at brigade and LFWA regarding a unit in Prince George, and what it should be.  Some have suggested that engineers or comms would be suitable to meet the present needs of the army. I regard that position as short-sighted and I believe that either of those would be much more viable once an infantry unit was established first.
Another officer and I did the demographics on the whole thing a few years back and the population of potential young male recruits (the main target group aged between 18 - 28) was very high, the average age at the time was 25 - it's now slightly higher but it is still quite low. It is also a stable population with many good jobs in the region.  There is no doubt whatsoever that Prince George could support at least one PRes unit in good strength, especially given the fact that there is both a medium sized college and university in the city to support various officer entry programmes and highly educated reserve soldiers.

It would just take some political will and the guts to make a decision to do it.  The matter has been analysed and studied extensively.  At one point the mayor's militia action committee arranged for a helicopter for the 39 Brigade CoS to tour the area.  One question that he asked was: "Are there sufficient training areas available to practice mounted and dismounted attacks at section platoon and company level or larger?"  The response from all of us was take him up in the donated chopper and show him.  He certainly agreed that this was an ideal location.  Another factor of note is that the local Rod and Gun Club has cleared the ground and is in the process of constructing a 1000 metre rifle range - sounds pretty useful to me.

 

[NMPeters]

pbi: Sorry that the results were not communicated to you prior to this. The CLS letter was sent to all Area Commanders with the excel spread sheet and the rationale was explained to them at Army Council. If you would like me to email you the letter and spreadsheet, I'll be happy to do so. Cheers.

 

[pbi]

NMPeters: Yes please. If you can, please include the date that this data was issued, so I can track if I should have known about it or not. However, as I sit here in the 'stan working off memory alone, things seem pretty much as I stated them earlier. Cheers.

 

[redleafjumper]

Thanks for the helpful comments and information.  I have sent another letter of for lobbying purposes; perhaps there is an opportunity in all the federal defence postulating that is now going on.

 

[mo-litia]

Best of luck, it's always good to see people with drive like yours . . . keeping plugging away, sooner or later the politicos will get sick of inventing excuses of why they CAN'T (Or, most likely WON'T) establish a new res infantry unit.

Looking forward to hearing of your success.

 

[redleafjumper]

Thanks Mo-litia.  I've been at this particular "mission" since 1987, so it's been a long pull.  Hopefully there will be something started here before I'm too old to be involved.

 

[GDawg]

Anyone here from Grande Prairie? I heard a rumor years back about trying to get some military presence there, probably Canadian Rangers from what little I heard. I think re-establishing D company of the LER would be a great idea. They could use there old armoury and they would find alot of local support I believe. what do you think Mo-litia?

 

[redleafjumper]

Grande Prairie is another logical choice for a sub-unit - it just needs to get past the up north and out west problem that seems to permeate the powers that be.  It wouldn't hurt to check with the LER and see if they're interested.
I thought there was a Canadian Ranger Patrol there but I could be wrong.

 

[redleafjumper]

Defence Minister Graham indicates in his last letter that the proposal regarding an infantry unit in Prince George has been forwarded to LFWA for consideration when the latest plan for the army is finalized.  The Mayor of Prince George will be meeting with him and other officials on an upcoming visit.  Hopefully there will be more forthcoming from that visit.

ttfn,

Redleafjumper